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Should we be asking for forgiveness.
Dave in Tenn:
You said, "Its not I’m uncomfortable with the question, its just not a possibility, if God does not exist then we cannot exist either, there is no life no universe outside of God."
Bingo.
So why do you answer the question theologically? Shouldn't the very fact that "without Him there is nothing..." be the basis of your understanding of the Sovereignty of God and (as a corollary) the myth of 'free'-will? Why draw so many square circles? Can't you see that all your 'reasoning' is in itself hypothetical?
In truth, I don't actually KNOW what you believe. I just know how you answered the question--and it's a perfectly FINE question to ask. Your ANSWER assumed something existed if God did not. In truth, neither good, nor evil, nor choice, nor YOU to make the choice--not even Girl Scout cookies--exist if He does not. What could possibly be more 'basic' than that?
AT THE VERY LEAST, make your answer to the questions most common in the world MAKE SENSE. Even better, THINK ON THESE THINGS. It is one thing to think about nothing, and something altogether different to think about "nothing". How can you "understand God" if you don't at some point think about NO GOD? I'm not talking about exploring atheism...that's just another -ism. I'm talking about BELIEVERS reading all the words of John 1 and doing what believers do--believe.
Dave in Tenn:
Eight years ago, I was agnostic (at best) leaning strongly toward the 'belief' that God did not exist. While I was (and well before that too) I didn't like the 'god' I thought did/might exist. I thought he was a finger-waggling, vain, capricious, old guy who couldn't even make up his mind if he 'loved' us or 'hated' us, yet he expected me to love him...and not just 'love him', but love him with all my heart and soul and mind. I told him to either 'fix' me or leave me the hell alone.
Before all that, I was a faithful, church-going christian. Though I struggled with sin, I did what I thought I was supposed to do...and I 'knew' a few 'truths' even then.
In both of those situations, though, I had the same 'mind'. It was a 'mind' that didn't think it mattered too much if there was a God close-by. You could never have convinced me as a christian that this was my mind, but what is worse than 'thinking' such a thought is living like that. And trust me, LIVING AS IF GOD DIDN'T MATTER characterizes most of my life...in church and after. In church, I would never had said such a thing. After, I was at leas honest.
Rick said asking the question leads back to babylon. That's not my experience at all.
I asked a similar question on facebook a few months ago: Where would you be without God? I got a few replies...some from traditional christians, and some from people I might have wished had 'thought' more about it. Nobody said, "Dave, I'd be nowhere at all."
Hey, I forgive them all...firstly, it's 'facebook'. Who goes there for 'deep thinking'? Secondly, because I know what they meant. Without God's help, or His grace, or His 'looking out after me', I'd be in a pickle. All true enough. Even the one who said she'd be burning in hell...I know she's blind as well as thinking the former things--God's help, grace, looking out for me.
But I've had the 'mind' that says 'whether or not God exists, I keep on going.' It wasn't until I BELIEVED John 1 (a faith given freely to me, even as it had been almost completely wiped out) that I even began to 'understand' what I was 'believing' from B-T, and well before I even knew there was a forum. That's the 'happy' facts.
The sad fact is that even today I still BEHAVE as if God's very existence didn't matter. I have to slow down, stop, and THINK to keep from behaving like just another beast of the field. Also, no matter what I am doing, He 'graces' me to 'think on these things'. just from the things, events, people He brings into my life That's the way i KNOW that He isn't finished with me yet.
John 'thought about' "without Him..." If he hadn't, he wouldn't have been able to write those words...no more-so than you can write "purple elephant" without thinking of a purple elephant. Thankfully, he knew the truth about "without Him..." and didn't finish his sentence without sharing it with us who believe, and for those to whom God is giving faith. We might can 'scan over' "purple elephant" without it affecting us, just as we can scan over "without Him nothing" without it affecting us. I know it can be done, because I've not only done it, but I've lived life because I did it.
rick:
Hi Dave,
Eight years ago I was still believing as Christendom does, eight years ago I believe in hell and I also knew I had to many issues to be heaven bound so I lived in fear of death.
I respect you for telling me the truth of your life, not all but many things you said I can relate to Dave!
The more I learn of God the more I realize I don’t know of God, like scripture says, who can search the depths of God ?
Like you I too am learning but we both know its God who calls us and its God who gives us the increase in knowledge.
You recited back to me my words to you ( Rick said asking the question leads back to Babylon. That's not my experience at all.) I read where Ray said John look back, I’m looking forward now but God will cause me to look back in His appointed time for me to look back.
There are so many things I don’t know nor understand about God, I only know I reject the lies I was once taught by Christendom.
Because of the foolishness of Rays teachings I only know I will never think of God in the same way I used to. ( that’s a good thing ) I know you can relate to this I say.
Eight years ago you were agnostic today you’re a moderator on this forum of God’s truth, freaky isn’t it. All this stuff Ray taught freaks me out in a good way, who could believe how different God is from the god of Christendom we were all taught ?
Seriously, why am I here? Why is anyone of us here ? More important, how have any of us come to believe what Ray said as truth ? You know as well as I do, its not by chance where here, its by Gods appointed time that we are here and believing what Ray taught is a miracle in itself.
When one believes a lie to be truth their whole life how is it possible to recognize the truth when it come ones way let alone believe it ?
I don’t know if my belief in God is in accordance with His truths or if I’m self deceived, I only know God is a Good God and that regardless of what I do, think or say He has my best interest at heart.
I can admire and love the God Ray has presented in the appointed time God says I will and yes I come to understand my will is subjected to His will 24/7/365 days a year for all my life in this age and every other age to come and yes I’m not perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect, not yet anyways.
God bless you Dave. :)
Jeff:
It's funny - I was walking back from lunch and considering the sin in my life - past and present. And the first thing I see is this thread.
Is our "sin" really meant for our spiritual growth? At first I thought "yes", but I couldn't really answer why I thought that. It then occurred to me that, yes, trials and tribulations can cause us to sin, but it's the trials the allow us to grow. The sin shouldn't be there - it is, of course, due to our nature, but the goal is to not sin.
The reason I was thinking about this is because the sin in my past has harmed me. Some things more than others, but nonetheless there has been lasting damage. It took something away from me.
God forgives me, but I have difficulty not being affected emotionally by the sins I've committed, because I live with the damage every day. Some things you can forget and others will always be there.
So, even though God forgives me, some effects of sin, can't simply be forgotten. Some things I will live with until Christ changes me and that has great impact on me.
Dave in Tenn:
Hey, Jeff.
We were never meant to be forever naked and ignorant in the garden. God has a much higher plan and purpose for His creation. Sin plays a part in that. Whether is 'should' or 'shouldn't' be there is really a non-issue for me. It simply IS. That's the way God planned it. That's the way God wants it to be in every life.
But there is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven. A time to sin, and a time to refrain from sinning.
Yes...sin harms. Boy oh boy, do some sins harm far worse than others. In fact, some sins harm us so much they pour out of us and harm others. But I'm not sure we're supposed to forget. That's God's job. I think we're supposed to 'look back' and see the wisdom of God in dragging us through all this $#%@. Maybe while we're still being dragged is when we have to 'look back' to Him and what He did. Not least (by a long-shot) that He did was die for us.
I can also understand the difficulty with emotion. I feel it more and more, but there's a limit. I have to believe this "limit" is so that I walk by faith, not by sight. I don't know what else to think, because I am not ever, ever again going to "fake it", God willing.
I love the 'hope' you ended with.
Hang in there, Jeff.
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