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Zacharias and Elizabeth

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Colin:
Dear Forum
I am disappointed by the treatment which was handed out to Gina, who put forward an observation for the forum to discuss.    Gina referred to Luke 1 and said she had noticed a few things and offered them for us to consider.   I did not see a single reply which bothered to take into account the verses with which she began her thread.

Luke 1: 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
41 And it occurred, as Elizabeth hears the salutation of Mary, the babe jumps in her womb, and Elizabeth is filled with Holy Spirit, (CLV) (and KJV)

I will add one more…..
67 His father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:   
When I took the time to read these verses, I too saw what Gina had mentioned.  And similar questions to hers came to my mind.   I am quite familiar with what Ray has written, portions of which were provided as the thread progressed.

Let me stress I am not in any way setting out to refute or contradict what Ray wrote.   
Those verses in Luke nevertheless do stare us in the face.  What are we to make of them?   Nobody really addressed that line of thought.   Because it had caught my interest, I did go searching to see what other relevant material I could find.  Here is what I discovered.

Luke 2:25  And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luke 2:26  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luke 2:27  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 

This repeated mention of the Holy Spirit made me think about the interaction upon people BEFORE Jesus was physically born, which Gina raised.    At this stage, I am not considering any of the “earlier prophets” of Old Testament times.   I know what Ray correctly taught about their lack of full realisation of what they had prophesied.

As I continued reading, I asked myself, well…..how was Simeon able to say what he did with such accuracy?  How had he “learned” these things?  I don’t usually list a whole “slab of verses”, but will on this occasion, so they might be read and analysed.

Luke 2:28  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:  30  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,   31  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;  32  A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luke 2:33  And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.  34  And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set [destined]  for the fall [downfall, crash, a stumbling block]  and rising again [resurrection] of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against [disputed];   

How does any man speak these words unless intentionally inspired by the Holy Spirit, directly influencing his thoughts (and his physical steps) ?  That is exactly what verses 25 and 26 say. 

Luke 2:35  (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

And here’s yet another person, speaking prophetically – how else….. except by means of the Holy Spirit…..

Luke 2:36  And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;    37  And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.    38  And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

We continue to read about John and how the word of God “came to him”….how else except by the Holy Spirit?
Luke 3:2  Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.   3  And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;    4  As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Does anybody imagine that John simply “dreamed up something interesting to say” all by his own accord?
Luke 3:5  Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;    6  And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.    7  Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?   

Have we stopped to think how all this “happened to take place” unless it was directly influenced by the Holy Spirit?    Having read Ray’s articles, I can just “hear” him asking such a question in order to get his readers to try using their God-given brains, to quote him.

Luke 3:10  And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
Then John replied, with “uncanny accuracy” the same things we read that Jesus said in Matthew 25.    I see the Holy Spirit at work again….does anybody else?

Luke 3:11  He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.   
I’ll skip a couple of verses…..

Luke 3:15  And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
No wonder they were scratching their heads….the same Spirit was “working” in both John the Baptist as it was in Jesus Christ….to differing degrees, I will allow.

Luke 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 3:17  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.   

Who informed John of THAT?   That was looking a long way into the future.

Luke 4:1  And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Funny thing….that’s where John the Baptist had been, as he was being tutored by the same Holy Spirit.
I don’t think Gina’s questions were so “far out”; does anybody still? 

I have been studying Ray’s Twelve God given rules to understand His Word
When I came to    Truth Number 5    I read……. 

Everything from Genesis to Revelation pertains to a higher SPIRITUAL meaning than the physical examples, parables, metaphors, allegories, stories and symbols in which they are written.                 "Let us make man in Our Image" (Gen. 1:26) are words of SPIRIT: "…Surely I come quickly…" (Rev. 22:20) are words of SPIRIT.   God does not look like a six-foot man or a five-foot woman. Jesus comes quickly to us, not to the world.     [ End of quote from Ray’s article]

“Everything from Genesis”….that would include the account of the Garden of Eden.  In another recent thread, some comments were criticised or downplayed, because they did not line up word for word with peoples’ somewhat rigid conclusions. 

If some can’t think past an apple tree and a serpent, then that’s fine…. for those who cannot.  We are all at differing stages of spiritual development, so let us gently remember that as we interact.

I asked myself, “why did Ray provide us with guidelines” in order that we can better understand God’s word?

Did he expect us to never “expand” on the fundamental truths?   To not only see/know where a parable does not carry a literal meaning….but that we are to “search for” the higher spiritual meaning (as the quote from Ray above proves).    Now, before anybody shoots me down, expand does NOT mean contradict.

Or make up our own fanciful notions and claim they fit the parable.   That would lead to chaos….back to Babylon.

However the parables DO carry higher spiritual meanings.   
 
Have we “got it made” by being able to quote Ray verbatim and no more – no less?  Ray knew he didn’t cover everything, and in giving us correct precepts and a wonderful example in thinking for ourselves with the aid of God’s spirit, he DID encourage his readers to “exercise and use their talents”. 

  The LOF series is filled with such admonishments. 

This is where the forum can be an “exercise ground” - not an arena where disputation is the “order of the day”.      Sometimes a read through the book of Proverbs will help correct our thoughts.  We can “spin our wheels” arguing to what degree Solomon was led by the Spirit, but the fact remains the content of his writings are “Spirit inspired”.      They contain spiritual “gems”.      Colin

Dave in Tenn:
It's very simple to me, Colin.  THE Holy spirit as a third person of a trinity does not exist.  HOLY SPIRIT does exist.  In contexts, it could be referred to as 'the Holy Spirit', though I think the emphasis is on the ADJECTIVE, not the noun.  "God" is spirit, and the Father of spirits.  Other "spirits" also exist, though I am far away from 'seeing' them as "Caspar--the friendly ghost"-like--even really big ones.  If we read those scriptures with even the remnant of christian theology, we're bound to confusion and dispute.

Those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth. 

It could be that part of the reason John 'foresaw' what Jesus was doing and would do is that he knew--and believed--the prophecy.  He worshiped Him in Spirit and Truth.

As for the rest of it:

I'm sorry that some feel the forum is too limited in it's function and purpose.  I am not sorry, however, that it IS limited in function and purpose.  It is a web-forum, and not a church.  We are not going to hire another 'pastor'.  Please let the moderators moderate the web-forum.  For a small group of part-time volunteers who ourselves don't have "all truth", I think we usually do pretty well.  If you feel differently, PM one of us.   

lilitalienboi16:
Colin,

Gina's questions were answered by both ray and ourselves.

No one disputes the use of God's spirit prior to Christ's ressurection as having been used to prophecy or peform a very specific task. In the old testament, the spirit of God didn't fill all of God's people. It's the very reason Moses pleaded with God for help in dealing with Isreal so that God took the spirit and gave it to 70 elders (but not the rest of His people). The holy spirit also departed from men in the old testament after a specific function was served. The example I gave was Saul but even Samson lost it too when the Lord departed from him.

In the old testament, God dwelt in a PHYSICAL temple but that changes after Jesus. Why? Because now is the time to worship God in spirit and truth, it wasn't before, and the men before us were carnal even though they may have appeared good relative to other men. It is because God used them for that specific purpose that was all occuring for our benefit so that we could learn from them but not because they were spiritual, righteous, or had the mind of Christ, but because God had worked through them to accomplish His plan.

The old testament prophets didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus said so Himself. They knew because God was with them, upon them, or in them--for a time-- that there was something much better to look forward to. They acknowledged they were strangers sojourning in a land not their own. Job learned of a future ressurection when His 'change would come' but he himself had no clue of who Jēsus was or how it would come about. Most in Israel could tell in a vague manner that a prince from the line of David would deliver them, a Saviour, but they had no clue it would be the very God of all things in the flesh and even when He came they still missed Him. They also though He would deliver them from their PHYSICAL enemies never realizing He would come to save them from themselves. Its that veil which is upon them when reading the scriptures, it blinds them now as it did before, this affected even the patriarchs. Daniel didn't understand his own prophecies and when he asked for an explanation he was basically told the time isn't right, its not for you, don't worry about it. The same can be said for Isaiah etc... Its why Jesus could say that many prophets and righteous men (old testament patriachs) had desired to see the things your eyes see but COULD NOT!

So with Christ comes grace and truth and a reason now for the holy spirit to dwell permanently in believers, perhaps with a purpose is more accurate, and that is to GRACE us by teaching us to deny ungodliness. God's divine influence upon our hearts (His grace) which is conforming us to His image is something the old patriarchs didn't have, not even john the baptist. Its why the least in the kingdom (first ressurection) willl be greater than John the baptist. It's why God said He was making a new covenent with Israel, where He would right His law in our inward parts, give us a new heart, because the heart has always been exceedingly weak. That includes the patriarchs and their own hearts, their carnal minds. This new heart, writting His laws upon it, is done by the grace and truth which Jesus brought through His spirit dwelling within us. Its why, for the first time, we find, our very bodies are the temple of God now as opposed to the physical building in  Jerusalem. This is not hard to understand and it harmonizes all the scriptures together, but if you take it and say, well before Jesus they had the holy spirit working in them to save them and will be in the first resurrection then you make God a liar because no one can be saved but through Jesus and the patriarchs did not know Jesus. We are flat out told they did not receive the promise (salvation) but saw it from afar. It was only after Jesus was lifted up that God would drag ALL men to Him and NOT before. The patriarchs fall into that catagory of 'ALL men.'

God bless,
Alex

Kat:

Colin, I'm wondering if maybe some think that the Holy Spirit that was upon or even in people in the OT and before Pentecost is the same as the Spirit of 'Christ' that we have in us now, after His sacrifice/resurrection? It is the same Holy Spirit, but after Christ lived on earth that Spirit took on a new dimension, as the Messiah - Christ, the anointed - the Savior of the world. Yes it's the Holy Spirit of God, but it must be the Spirit of the risen Christ in particular for the chosen in this age.

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
v. 10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
v. 5  to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
v. 6  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html -----

So whatever you read about God in the OT, virtually always, it could be a reference slightly different, but mostly not. In the NT we have God and it’s speaking of the Father. Paul introduces every book he has written with that salutation.

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

2Cor 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course if you got a trinity, then Paul really messed up. 

1Cor 1:1  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God…

Rom 1:7  …Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is not there. If the Holy Spirit is a person, a personality of a triune Godhead or divinity and Paul has 13 books, but never once acknowledges the Holy Spirit, something is wrong with Paul. 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians… etc., any book you open up, there is just those two.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…

Phi 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,

There is no Holy Spirit. Not that the Holy Spirit is nothing or of no consequence, it’s just not a person. Jesus Christ and God the Father ARE the Holy Spirit! Jesus Christ is that Spirit! 

John 16:7  … I will send him (the Comforter) to you. v. 15  … He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you.

What is He going to take of Christ? His Spirit. Where did Christ get that Spirit? From God the Father. But He is going to take of Christ, because it’s going to be the personality of Christ, see. 

Paul didn’t say, I’m crucified with God, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the FATHER lives in me. No, it’s, “I have been crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me.” (Gal 2:20)  But see it’s the personality of Christ, that is the spirit that lives in us and that spirit comes from God. So we can call it God’s Holy Spirit, even though it’s channeled through Christ. Jehovah /Elohim, God the Father(Elohim), you know.
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Hope this is helpful in what we are trying to say, it's only through Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

2Cor 5:18  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

Rom 3:24  being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 5:21  that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:17  For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

1Cor 15:57  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are so many more verses on this, but I'll stop there.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Terry:
I know i'm just a babe still on the milk but that makes sense to me,great info Alex,Dave and Kat awesome ,also i'm not saying this as a pat on the back i'm so thankful to all who God has blessed to be able to help those like me.

Much Love
Terry

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