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Zacharias and Elizabeth
Colin:
Dear Dave, Alex, Kat
Many thanks for each one of your replies. I had hesitated before I posted, because I did not wish to create any semblance of disagreement. The answers you have given me have helped me to “piece together” a subject which I was not clear about.
I did not consciously hold any ideas of the Holy Spirit being a “person” like those who promote the false trinity concept. Ray “nailed” that long ago for me.
As you pointed out Dave, a “residual” portion of that teaching plus the use of capitalised font in the KJV (and others) tends to imprint an idea, which Kat went on to clarify and unravel for me. Your mention of an adjective sense, Dave, began to lift a veil - a point which Alex very effectively used to assist me. I am grateful for all of you taking the time to provide me with answers. I can see the “hand of God” at work, for it brought about a combined effort to not only satisfy my query, but others will benefit, I am sure.
Dave, it wasn’t so much my feeling that the forum appears to be too limited, but rather, I saw a scriptural reference which had been left “unnoticed” and that began a chain of thoughts, which I deemed worth a mention. I suppose there is a degree of limitation for somebody like me, living by myself and not having any recourse to discuss matters face to face….but that is the case for many of us. Maybe I need to work on “patience” - I do learn from the forum with the many ideas put forward and answered (no doubt at a slower pace than I realise or desire)…even incorrect ideas that have been posted, and which elicit correction are a means for me to learn from as well. Ray made use of a similar technique in a way by using rhetorical questions in his articles and answers to readers, to get a correct point across effectively.
Thank you Dave for your frank and welcoming response. I am not “skilled” at using PMs…..for an old man, approaching 80, that might be a challenging conundrum. Emails I can manage. And even being able to post on the forum now is an achievement!
Alex, thank you for your valuable input and the time you spent away from your medical studies to contribute. I appreciate that. You gave me another aspect to consider….the specific functions which were carried out through the working of the spirit of God. Maybe that is a better way to write it, rather than the “Holy Spirit”, which has a tendency to “personify” it in our minds, which I remember Ray teaching us, is incorrect. Right now, as I write, I am thinking of John chapter 17 and will spend some time in re-reading it while keeping in mind the answers each one of you have provided for me.
I had not considered for a moment “that they had the holy spirit working in them to save them and [thus] will be in the first resurrection”. You are quite right when you say, “[that would] make God a liar because no one can be saved, but through Jesus - and the patriarchs did not know Jesus”.
Alex, you also gave me something else to “take on board”….the restricted level of comprehension that the O.T. patriarchs, prophets possessed, despite their wanting to have it all made clear to them……we’re not much different, in a way….how many of us would like to “know more”….right now? God says, “All in good time”. OK….like a piece of clay, I’d better be content to stay on the spiritual “moulding wheel” (or whatever it’s called) and continue to be shaped, eh?
Thank you Kat for the clarification, which you provided. You asked, I'm wondering if maybe some think that the Holy Spirit which was upon or even in people in the OT and before Pentecost is the same as the Spirit of 'Christ' that we have in us now, after His sacrifice/resurrection?
My answer, upon reflection, would have been “YES”. You went on to say :- It is the same Holy Spirit, but after Christ lived on earth that Spirit took on a new dimension, as the Messiah - Christ, the anointed - the Saviour of the world. Yes it's the Holy Spirit of God, but it must be the Spirit of the risen Christ in particular for the chosen in this age.
The quote you gave from Galatians caused the light bulb to “come on” for me. I had not “seen” that before….well, I had READ it, but not seen the implication “that God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts.” I, also, had “not noticed” a verse.
Again I see the hand of God at work…..had I not posted what I had felt a strong urge to do, I would not yet understand this verse. For answering my post, I thank you and for bringing it to my attention. It’s like getting a new pair of “spiritual spectacles”….I can focus so much better. With gratitude, Colin
rick:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on October 15, 2015, 12:29:20 AM ---
It's very simple to me, Colin. THE Holy spirit as a third person of a trinity does not exist. HOLY SPIRIT does exist. In contexts, it could be referred to as 'the Holy Spirit',
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
Would you mind further elaborating on just what the Holy Spirit is, I understand what adjective means and what noun means but you confuse me as to what you think and believe the Holy Spirit is.
Is the Holy Spirit dumb ? Does the Holy Spirit have any intelligent’s ? Is the Holy Spirit just the breath of life given to Adam ? I thought the Holy Spirit was Jesus, is that correct ? I’m thinking if the Holy Spirit can teach, it must have intelligent’s but I could be wrong, am I ?
Although the forum might have limitations God has none except those that go against His will of course. Could you explain what the Holy Spirit is according to Rays teaching on the subject ?
What and who is the Holy Spirit in lay mens terms I guess is what I’m trying to understand, could you help me with my understanding ?
You speak of the Holy Spirit as if you understand the Holy Spirit so well, I would like to know ! If the Holy Spirit is not a third person As you say which I am not arguing against your point but how can the Holy Spirit do anything for me on my behalf ?
If you think I’m challenging you I’m not, I only want to know, to understand what and who the Holy Spirit is, according to you ,the Holy Spirit cannot be referred to as a who or noun, if not then what is the Holy Spirit?
God bless. :-\
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Rick on October 15, 2015, 10:24:57 PM ---
...according to you ,the Holy Spirit cannot be referred to as a who or noun, if not then what is the Holy Spirit?
God bless. :-\
--- End quote ---
That is not at all what I said. There are many "spirits" (nouns) --Holy (adjective), and otherwise.
I don't need to reiterate what I already said. I'd just be repeating myself. I borrowed the "Caspar the friendly ghost" thing from Ray, though I'd be hard-pressed to find it again. Most that I know of where Ray taught on this 'subject' is in the Trinity Paper.
If you (or anybody) can tell me what Spirit (the noun) is--in clear language and without adjectives, I'm all ears. All I know is what "spirit" is LIKE, and what spirit does.
cheekie3:
Colin -
Your last response is very thoughtful and considerate; and I am sure it will help many on this Forum.
Communicating via PM is like email only sent to selected Forum Members - so for example, if you typed in Gina - Gina would be selected.
Regarding the point Gina made, and the way the responses went, I am saddened - as to me Gina and John from Kentucky have shown that they know much of The Truths of God. If we understand the issue and address it in Truth to the best of our ability, it is always up to The Holy Spirit to make the understanding sure in the other Forum member.
In my experience most people (including some of The Elect) dislike (or hate) correction. Most of us understand better when we are not directly involved - so when Gina and John from Kentucky exchange their understanding - most of us can ascertain what is being said by both.
However, when someone tries to correct someone else - even in the best tone and heart - if the recipient is not willing to understand what you are saying and why you are saying it - they will NEVER clearly understand.
The Scriptures tell us that we must be willing to be corrected in The Truth - and I believe unless we can actually see ourselves in the the situation and at least try to see how others see us, we cannot begin to understand the issue - let alone correct others - or dare I say it, be corrected ourselves.
I talked in 'tongues' for a number of years, as when The Lord called me out, one of my brothers said I should go to the local Pentecostal church - which out of curiosity I did, and I lasted little more than a year there, as I daily saw the hypocrisy and lies constantly told. That is where I was told that being Born Again means I must talk in tongues. Utter Garbage.
It was not until I read Ray's paper on Talking in Tongues - and was challenged to check The Scriptural references Ray provided that I realised - O My God, how deceived have I been. One by one, through Ray's Papers, audios and videos, I researched and checked The Scriptures and finally was free of all the church lies and deception.
As Ray says - Why do you say you Love Me and do not do what I say - Pastors and Leaders of the church are no different to lying politicians - whereby they think they are intelligent and smart - but really are selfish fools - the blind leading the blind. The ones that see through this charade have no option but to come out of the church and go into the wilderness.
I take no credit for any achievements on my part to be free of the false church of Christ - as it is only by His Holy Spirit that anyone can be free of deception.
Ray said many times that if something is True, the more you study it, the more True it becomes- and if a thing is False, the more you study it the more it proves to be False.
We live in a world full of marketing and illusion; and it is difficult to see reality for what it is - especially regarding the spiritual understanding we all crave for.
Let us all be humble enough to accept that all Truth that has been given to us is not of ourselves but a Free Gift from God - to be shared to those He directs us to share with in humility.
If we have mastered a particular Truth, it becomes part of us spiritually; and as such, we must be able to articulate the right response to those asking for clarity - or even to those who are yet still deceived in part. It is like the difference between a Liar and someone telling The Truth. The one telling The Truth can be stopped by a question, and answer it directly, as all they have to do is reply specifically to the question - whereas a liar is unlikely to have thought of all the questions they are likely to be asked about their lies, that they need time to try and come up with a viable answer.
Best Regards.
George.
Kat:
Hi Rick, here are a few places Ray spoke about the Holy Spirit.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12224.0.html ----
The "Trinity" doctrine emphasizes that "God" is composed of
Three, equally Divine Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the
Holy Spirit. Right here is where the doctrines becomes unscriptural heresy.
The Holy Spirit "of" God, is not a "person." Neither is God the Father of
our Lord Jesus Christ, a "person." A "person" is a "human being." Neither
God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit OF God, IS A PERSON--a human being!
Nowhere in Scripture is the Holy Spirit "of" God, CALLED GOD. There is no
such thing as "God the Holy Spirit" in Scripture, and my authority is the Holy
Scriptures."
Of course there is much more to it, but this is the starting point if one wishes
to know the Scriptural truth regarding this man-made doctrine.
http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm#agree --------
The Holy spirit OF God is certainly not a "person" as you suggest. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit OF God the Father." I assure you, however, that God the Father is not the "Father OF the Holy Spirit." Think about that for a few years and it might come to you. Paul ALWAYS addressed and praised God the Father and His Lord Jesus Christ in EVERY salutation in EVERY epistle He ever wrote.Example:
"Paul, an apostle of JESUS CHRIST by the will of GOD, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in CHRIST JESUS: Grace be to you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:1-2).
But Paul never ONCE mentioned or addressed the Holy Spirit in ANY of his epistles EVER. Do you have a good explanation for such an gross omission and degradation of the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is a PERSON, and VERY GOD? Well do you? No, of course you don't.
Jesus Christ was "conceived by THE HOLY SPIRIT."... And the reason that Jesus is the Son of the Father (II Jn 3), and not the son of some other person, is because his Mother, Mary, was made pregnant by His Father's "Holy Spirit." Am I going to fast for you?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7664.0.html ---------
I have always said that God's Spirit is God. That what God does through His spirit is GOD DOING IT, and not someone else. The Spirit of God is not SOME OTHER PERSON, but God Himself.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1934.0.html ----
God is Holy and God is Spirit--therefore, God is HOLY Spirit.. Actually the "Holy Spirit" is mentioned in the Old Testament: Psalm 51:11; Isa. 63:10, etc.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3514.0.html -----
Jesus is the Personification of the Holy Spirit (His SPIRIT FATHER living IN Him). Therefore, the Person Jesus is the "He and the Him," not the Spirit of God in Him. God the Father OWNS, if you will, His OWN Spirit. It belongs TO Him. IT is HIS. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT OWN GOD THE FATHER. Can you see and understand that? God HAS a spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT HAVE A GOD, therefore, it is an IT, and not a HE or a HIM. I have explained this many dozens of times on our site, but you are the second person today to ask this same kind of question. It is hard to rid ourselves of the Christian pagan doctrines of the Church.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4995.0.html -----------
The trinity teaching is not that the Holy Spirit is God, but that the Holy Spirit IS A PERSON!! And this is decidedly NOT SCRIPTURAL at all.
Hello ray,
Let me tell you i thank God for you brother. You speak what is the truth MOST of the time. However you are mistaken on the trinity. I once read a response of yours to a reader about how there is no scripture in the bible that calls The Holy Spirit God. Obviously you have never read 2 cor 3:17
2Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
COMMENT: II Cor. 3:17 does NOT SAY that "The Holy Spirit is God," does it?
which clearly states "NOW the LORD IS THE SPIRIT". The emphasiis is on the word "is". If you read those words backwards you would have "Now the SPIRIT IS THE LORD!. Therefore the question becomes who is "THE LORD"?
ALL one has to do is read the "ten" commandments to find the answer
COMMENT: Oh really? In II Cor. 3:17, the word for "Lord" is "kurios" and it is used of Jesus Christ nearly 700 times in the New Testament. "The Lord" of II Cor. 3:17 is clearly Jesus Christ, not God the Father.
I AM "THE LORD" THY GOD THOU SHALL Have no other gods before me. Clearly THE lord of 2 corinthians is the same LORD throughout the entire old testament, who f course is the FATHER.
COMMENT: The Lord of the Old Testament is "Jehovah" which is a Proper NAME, not a title as is "Lord" in the New Testament. Even so, Jehovah was NOT Jesus' Father, but Jesus Himself. Moses heard ahnd saw Jehovah, whereas NO MAN HAS EVER seen or heard the Father (John 5:37). But of course, this would require one to believe the Scriptures, and not too many people are willing to do that.
THerefore SInce the "SPIRIT" (holy spirit) is THE LORD(the father), the father must be the spirit.
COMMENT: The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God." However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18). Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15). The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS. "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT."
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12224.0.html ---------
Dear David: Thank you for your email and comments.
No, I don't see a problem with II Cor. 13:14, as it is in keeping with other Scriptures and other statements of Paul.
2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
Our fellowship/communion (they are both translated from the same Greek word), is through God's Holy Spirit which is also Christ's Holy Spirit. Remember the Spirit that Jesus promised would come to His disciples? So it is through that Spirit that we fellowship or commune with God and Jesus. Virtually the same thing is stated in Phil. 2:1--
Phi 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any FELLOWSHIP OF THE SPIRIT, if any bowels and mercies,
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ------------
Could it be that just as Jesus is the Son "of" God and not God Himself, that the holy spirit is the spirit "of" God and not God Himself? Yes, that is what the Scriptures clearly teach. We have the Son "of" God and the spirit "of" God and yet God is "of" NO ONE!! Is there anyone who wishes to challenge this? God Almighty is out of NO ONE! God Almighty is of NO ONE!
v
In Mat. 12:28 Jesus said He cast out demons "by the SPIRIT of God." Yet the Pharisees claimed He did it by the power of Beezeboul. Jesus told the Pharisees that accusing Him of casting out demons "by the power of Beezeboul," when He did it by the "spirit of God," is blasphemy against the "holy spirit" (Ver. 32).
Here is clear and simple proof that the "spirit of God" and the "holy spirit" are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT--not a third person of a so-called trinity!
Again let me state: Anything that is "of" or "from" someone else cannot BE that same someone else! Nothing can be "of" someone and yet, at the same time, "be" that same someone! This is axiomatic.
The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "God’s" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)
The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.
v
Jesus said that He and His Father are ONE. He never said that He and the holy spirit are ONE. It is rather THROUGH the holy spirit that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son, and we are in Christ and Christ is in us and the Father is in us!
Next let’s consider who or what is the "comforter" mentioned only in John’s gospel account.
"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you [it is not "from" the holy spirit, but "from" the Father] another Comforter [this word does not require a capital letter], that he [it] may abide with you for ever [Greek: for the aion--eon or age]. Even the Spirit of truth..." (John 14:16-17 KJV).
Remember that Jesus said "I am the truth." How then can this "comforter" be coming from both His Father and Himself? Is this possible? Once we understand just what this "spirit of truth," "spirit of God," "holy spirit," "holy ghost," "comforter" really is, we will see that it certainly DOES come from both the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be IN YOU.
v
Jesus was assuredly "the spirit of truth" of which He spoke. And as such Jesus was with the disciples. But now He is telling them that when He leaves them to be with the Father, He will come back to them, only this time He will not just be with them, but He will be IN them! The spirit of truth was with the apostles in the person of Jesus Christ, but He told them that after He left to be with the Father that this same spirit of truth would be in them. This is all done by "spirit," the spirit of God.
Notice verse 26 of John 14:
"Now the consoler, THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending in MY NAME..."
And see how this is done, verse 23:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE shall be coming to him and making OUR abode with him.
This is done through the consoler, the comforter, the spirit of truth, THE HOLY SPIRIT of God! Jesus said He would not leave them "comfortless" (Ver. 18), so for sure Jesus must return to His followers to "comfort" them. This He did and still does by the "spirit of God" which God gave to His son Jesus and which the Father then turns around and gives FROM that very same spirit in Christ TO US! The following Scripture make this plain:
"All things that the Father hath are mine [all things include the holy spirit]: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine [that is, of the spirit that His Father gave to Him], and shall shew it UNTO YOU" (John 16:15).
Here is one more proof that the "holy ghost [spirit]" and the "spirit of God" are one and the same. Here is what Jesus told His disciples would happen when they would be brought before magistrates and powers:
"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say" (Luke 12:11-12).
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WHO, OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:
"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."
Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn’t you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."
Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).
This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ’s spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There’s no trinity here.
Jesus said:
"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).
Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"
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