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BIBLICAL FIGURES OF SPEECH LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?

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lilitalienboi16:
Hi Kat,

Are you saying Moses SAW a burning bush but that it wasn't actually burning?

Are you saying John SAW Jesus with eyes of fire but that His eye's weren't actually a-fire?

Just trying to understand.

I believe they actually literally saw these things with their eyes even if what they saw wasn't exactly literal fire. It looked like fire, it may have been hot like fire (though I guess we have no description on how hot it was ;) ), and so it was described 'as' or 'LIKE' fire. It seems to me like this is what you're saying and I can see it that way too. My point originally was not to dismiss these events as actual recorded history which happened to these people. They witnessed with their eyes some amazing things and it was necessary because it was written for our admonishment.

Jesus is the one whose eye's burn like a fire. John saw that with his eyes in the spirit on the Lord's day. It appears to be part of His glory.

God bless,
Alex

Kat:

Yes Alex, that is what I was saying, that it was not actual literal fire, but this glory of the Lord 'appears' to man as something like fire, I guess it's the best representation we have of it. But it is not literal fire, nor does it consume like literal fire would. When looking at the burning bush passage you will see what the 'fire' actually is.

Exo 3:2  And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
v. 3  Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
v. 4  So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."

What the bush was showing was the glory of the Lord on it, not a physical thing, but it appeared 'like' fire, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29). So is that hot? Well Moses was up on the mountain with God and the glory of that actually shone on his face, don't think that is hot like physical fire is.

So I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, just wanted to add to the discussion for clarity.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lauriellen:
There is a 'figure of speech' that is often used to describe my 3 sisters and myself. People have often said, "if you have seen one of them, you have seen them all."  They say this because we look so much alike. Of course there are many differences as well in height, weight, hairstyle, etc., but the similarities are so strong, that they overshadow the differences. I have often wondered if this could be the case as well, when Jesus declared "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"....could this be just a figure of speech?

lilitalienboi16:
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There is a 'figure of speech' that is often used to describe my 3 sisters and myself. People have often said, "if you have seen one of them, you have seen them all."  They say this because we look so much alike. Of course there are many differences as well in height, weight, hairstyle, etc., but the similarities are so strong, that they overshadow the differences. I have often wondered if this could be the case as well, when Jesus declared "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"....could this be just a figure of speech?
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Hi Lauriellen,

Here are some of Ray's thoughts before he passed.

You wrote about Jesus talking to Phillip as Phillip is requesting to see God,  "Jesus said that no man has ever seen God, but yet He chided Philip: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER; and how say you then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9).  There is a problem here.  If no man has ever seen or heard the Father, yet through Jesus we both see and hear the Father, then Jesus is the only God that anyone has ever seen or heard.  But don't we then have two Gods?  But the Scriptures insist on only one God."

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Both the Father and the Son are scarcely alluded to inthe Hebrew Scriptures.  Well then, WHO IS GOD of the Hebrew Scriptures?You'll have to wait till I finish my research for what I believe is the Scripturalanswer to this enigma.  There is far more to this subject than most couldever imagine, and yet, the answer has been there all the time, it's just thatwe haven't believed the Scriptures. And giving the answer and proving theanswer are two different things, I assure you.  At least I now know the Nameof the Father.

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"But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in Him,and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by Him."Paul's subject in this chapter is "idols."  So He is teaching Who the real God is.Who is the "one God" of Whom he speaks?  He answers: "the FATHER," followedby a description of the Father's role in the universe, but if we take out the descriptionof His role we loose nothing, as the thought is the same only shortened:  "to us there isone God, THE FATHER. But Paul doesn't end his statement with a period. There ismore to follow.  He also speaks of "one Lord Jesus Christ" and a description of Hisrole in the universe.  Okay, let's leave out ALL the descriptive words describing bothof Their roles, and we have this:"...to us...ONE GOD:  the Father...AND...Jesus."I am not suggesting that this is the way to study all Scripture, by taking outwords, but I am trying to draw attention to the most important words.Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30).  Who is the"one" in Jesus's statement?  The Father?  NO--"the Father AND Jesus."Wow.  Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?

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Ray,When will your new paper be finished?  I feel like his spirit in me says that in the flesh Jesus wascompletely man, he had divested himself of divinity, but in spirit he is once again the creator god.From RandyDear Randy:  I have no idea.  Only God knows.  A better question would be: "When will you STARTwriting your new paper?"  I have not been feeling very well the whole last year.  However, I have beenreading and studying a lot, also taking hundreds of pages of notes, but I haven't written but a fewpages on what could be called my "New Paper."  I know people think that I should be able to solvein a few months what hundreds of thousands of theologians, scholars, teachers, and ministers havenot been able to solve in over two thousand years, but that is not the case I'm afraid. There arenumerous problems with the appearing of Jesus Christ in the New Testament as not only the Son ofGod, but God Himself, and yet remain true to the teaching that there is only ONE GOD. I may knowthe answer, but Scripturally proving it is a little more difficult than most can imagine.Who was Jesus when "he had divested himself of divinity" as you say?  The only "Jesus" we aretold of in the Bible is the One Who was born of the virgin Mary.  Who was He and where was He atthe time that He "divested" Himself?  Where do we find Jesus Christ BEFORE the New Testament? Where did He come from?  Who was He BEFORE He divested His divinity and BEFORE He wasborn of a virgin?  Is He even mentioned in the Old Testament?  Or did the God of the Old Testamentdivest Himself of His divinity? If there is only ONE God and that ONE God "divested" Himself of His divinity, then Who is running theUniverse?  Who remains as a God UN-divested of Divinity?  If you say that that God is God the Father,then Who was the God that divested Himself of divinity?  If you say Jesus, then we have TWO GODS--One divested and One UN-divested!  If there was but ONE GOD and that One God divested Himselfof His divinity and DIED, then how is it that we still have TWO LIVING GODS?  We have [1] Jesus, theOne that Thomas called "My LORD and my GOD," and we have [2] God the Father Who raised the"LORD AND GOD" of doubting Thomas from the dead.  See what mean?  It's a ENIGMA!!  May Godgrant us all patience till we come into a greater knowledge of the Truth.Ray

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All these are from rays emails which you can find in the email section. I'm on my phone amd can't post the links properly hence why they are omittted. I can find and post them when I'm home if you like.

The last email I posted will be of most interest to you and your question

Also in the second to last email,

"Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30).  Who is the"one" in Jesus's statement?  The Father?  NO--"the Father AND Jesus."Wow.  Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?

God bless,
Alex

Colin:
Hello everybody
In relation to the use of figurative language in scripture, I have been thinking about the subject of “darkness”….(and by association, “light”).   An article of Ray’s started me off on this “journey”…can’t remember which particular one I had been reading.

The first place we come across darkness is in Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

As Ray taught us to “take notice of the words”, and think about what we are reading, I asked “why did we need to know that there was darkness”?    What difference does it make to know that, except, as Ray also remarked, the whole Bible is a parable. 

I applied the principle Ray often mentioned “first comes the physical, then the spiritual” ….
1Cor 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

I coupled that with the use of figurative speech regularly used throughout scripture.   Fire is just one instance in which we find literal, as well as figurative speech being used.

When I began a search using e-sword, I was surprised to see the number of times we find darkness (and light) occurring in the scriptures. 
The “literal darkness” at the time of creation of the earth prefigured, I venture to say, the spiritual darkness which the earth’s inhabitants were to be subjected to… Jesus used the metaphor of darkness in Matthew 6:23 and Luke 11:34,35.

Mat 6:22 KJV The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23  But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Luke 11:34 KJV  The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

I consulted the Living Bible version and found it expresses the concepts well….

Matt 6:22, 23  LB “If your eye is pure, there will be sunshine in your soul.  But if your eye is clouded with evil thoughts and desires, you are in deep spiritual darkness.  And oh, how deep that darkness can be!”

Ray also mentioned in a bible study that he had read where scientists state that light has taken an enormous length of time to escape from the interior of the sun (or any star) before “breaking forth” to reach into space.   Again, I sense there is an analogy there…..spiritual truth does not come to any of us “instantaneously”.

An interesting account is found in Exodus 10:22
Exo 10:22  And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
Exo 10:23  They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

Imagine being Moses…stretching out your hands and then an impenetrable darkness occurs in Egypt……yet, not too far away, the Israelites could still see quite well…..it certainly wasn’t done by having thick rain clouds gather overhead…..otherwise some “stray light” would have allowed the Egyptians to see a little.   But it was so dark, they couldn’t even see each other…..for three days.   Like being deep underground in a mine and turning off any form of lighting….the darkness presses on your eyeballs!

It is clear that God does control the “physical” light and darkness, as well as their spiritual counterparts. 
Isa 45:7  I form [Hebrew yâtsar = shape, mould] the light, and create [Hebrew bârâ = create, select] darkness: I make [Hebrew `âśâh = accomplish] peace, and create [Hebrew bârâ = create, select] evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Another instance of a similar control by God of light and absence of light…..
Exod 14:19  And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Exod 14:20  And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
Joshua 24:7  And when they cried unto the LORD, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them; and your eyes have seen what I have done in Egypt: and ye dwelt in the wilderness a long season.

I then came across Isaiah 58 in my word search – the chapter which deals with the topic of what is the (spiritual) lesson of “fasting”, which the Israelites were commanded to do literally on the Day of Atonement.
Isa 58:10  And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
Isa 58:11  And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

The use of figurative language is an effective way in which God conveys to us the parable content of His word.         
Just as God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29), He is also the Father of lights (James 1:17).

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