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Not forsaking the assembling...

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rumpelstiltskin:
I'm not trying to actively diminish the level of fellowship with "unbelievers".  I'm just recognizing that the fellowship WITH believers is HIGHER, with others less High--on down the line until I can have no fellowship with them whatsoever.  Regardless, my faith covers them all, in that they are all included in the ultimate salvation of God.

i don't personally Know any one Body of Christ ,or any church denomination for that matter.
But salvation of all includes all my non - believing Friends and family.
White throne judgment may include me for all i know and the above quote is pretty much how i see things.  :)

lareli:

--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on March 11, 2016, 06:49:41 PM ---Largeli, firstly my faith isn't in floods, creations, or anything else.  My faith is in Jesus Christ.  Secondly, YES--the higher the 'agreement' over other matters, the higher the fellowship--especially when these matters are near or at the heart of your heart.  That should go without saying.  Otherwise, the topic is either avoided (not always a bad thing) or is argued (also not always a bad thing).

I don't have many friends...not even a large, close, extended family.  My closest natural friend is 'almost' a believer in the salvation of all, but we don't share the same beliefs on other matters important to me.  As much as I like (even love) him, there is a separation there and nothing closes that.  That's OK with me, however.  I don't even BELIEVE I'm required to have the same level of brotherly LOVE for everybody equally all the time.  Of the twelve, Jesus hung out most with three...but He loved them all.

I'm not trying to actively diminish the level of fellowship with "unbelievers".  I'm just recognizing that the fellowship WITH believers is HIGHER, with others less High--on down the line until I can have no fellowship with them whatsoever.  Regardless, my faith covers them all, in that they are all included in the ultimate salvation of God.

It's true that genuine faith affects behavior...maybe ALL faith affects behavior.  The relationship fo faith to works was much better covered by Ray than I could ever do, much less in a forum post.  If it makes you feel better, there are scattered "universalists" that I can't have fellowship with...not because somebody told me it was "wrong", but simply because I can't.

You're asking me this question (these questions) as if I am a theological hobbyist, or another guy with a bible.  No.  I LIVE this 'stuff'.  It's the most important thing in my life, and arches over and bubbles into every other important thing in my life.  No, I'm not a bible-scholar, and I can't even 'think on these things' 24/7...but I do often enough that it affects and illuminates every aspect of my life from abject failure to glimmers of hope.   

 

--- End quote ---

I don't mean to approach you as if you are a theological hobbyist or another guy with a bible. Just trying to get a clearer picture.

Some of us have come out of the Babylon of American Christianity but are still blind to the deceptions of our social constructs and social indoctrinations. We are born into a world of lies. And then some of us have come out of the Babylon of our social constructs but are still blind to the spiritual truth of God and Christ.

Both are deceived but one could be considered by the 'christian' definition to be a 'believer'.

rick:
I read often where someone says I have come out  of Babylon and while that maybe true in that one stops going to the churches of Christendom how much of Babylon has come out of us ?

I personally think / believe both sides are very much deceived just in different ways but as Christ reveals His truths to us we become less deceived and further from Babylon, Its like Ray said, its a process but a process that takes a lifetime.

When one is changed in the twinkling of the eye you can be assured then you are out of Babylon and no longer deceived but until then is it not presumptuous to think otherwise ?

If one believes they already arrived what need is there to run the race ?

God bless.

Kat:

--- Quote from: largeli on March 14, 2016, 07:53:09 PM ---
Some of us have come out of the Babylon of American Christianity but are still blind to the deceptions of our social constructs and social indoctrinations. We are born into a world of lies. And then some of us have come out of the Babylon of our social constructs but are still blind to the spiritual truth of God and Christ.

Both are deceived but one could be considered by the 'christian' definition to be a 'believer'.
--- End quote ---

I guess we need to understand what a 'believer' really is. Before any of us can truly come to know/believe Christ  there are things that must happen in our lives, even before walking away from the church - the called... and there is a big different between the called and those that go on to be chosen. Here it is according to how Ray presented it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ----------------

THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST

I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God’s called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.

The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times…" That’s a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God’s plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "…and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for

"Who are you that judges another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).

We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:

"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!

When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.
v
With this in mind let’s read II Thes. 2:3:

"Let no man [‘let not any person,’ RSV, ‘Let no ONE…’] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"

Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.

And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE!
v
The "beast" is you!

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html -------------------

Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).

Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:08).

Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:8 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.

Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
v
The question presents itself: "If we truly had "love" why should we have to "fall" from it or "leave it" in the first place? Ah, herein lies one of the grandest Truths found in all Scripture!

From our first parents onward, God has always allowed men to believe that they are able of and by themselves (by their supposed phantom "free" will) to love God and be obedient to His laws. Despite God’s plethora of testimonies to the contrary, theologians and philosophers alike have taught mankind that they are indeed ABLE TO CHOOSE and, ABLE TO DO and to carry out that choice, because they have the "free will" within them to do so. What they have within them is a "beast" that is no more able to choose and obey God than any literal beast of the field.
v
I showed from the Scriptures in our last installment that we only become aware of the beast when we are standing on the "sand of the sea." AFTER our spiritual house built upon spiritual sand FALLS DOWN, and WE fall down. And this is precisely why Paul tells us that the

"…day of Christ… shall not come [to US] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST…" (II Thes. 2:1-2).

This "fall" by the way is not a little slip or a little stumble. It is a complete and total SPIRITUAL FALL! We all come to Christ with a simple childlike innocence. But … BUT, once we are in "the church of our choice," we start to get educated in the ways of Christendom. We learn of many rules based on the unscriptural traditions of men. We delight in many of these rules and traditions (sometimes not all of them), and before we know it, our new religion sooner or later TAKES US RIGHT BACK INTO THE WORLD that we thought we came out of.
v
So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left their first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have been enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.

If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
--------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Colin:
Hello Everybody

When we read of the construction of the Temple carried out by Solomon’s builders, it appears somewhat “strange” to discover that it was done with all the stones having been shaped, so they would all fit together, and, surprisingly with all of the preparatory work completed “off-site”.    Subsequently, all the finished pieces were brought and assembled on site, so that there was no noise from any hammering and chiselling. 

It wasn’t a public spectacle.

1Kings 6:1  And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
1Kings 6:7  And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.   

Why do it that way?    Nothing in God’s plans, I believe, is done as a whim.   

We read that we are likened to “lively stones” and that we are (to be chosen) to form the “house of God”.

1Peter 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are [being] built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.   

When I looked at how Paul described us, I saw a “pattern”.

1Cor. 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment [Greek γνώμη  gnōmē   = opinion, resolve].

It appears that we, like building blocks, are being “shaped” individually, with all the various life- experiences, tests and trials (chiselling) which God knows each of us requires - away from the “final building-site” – all the while being shaped (or moulded like clay) so that we “fit together” - having the same objectives, desires; God’s final achievement is guaranteed.  He has the “master blueprint”….the “building plans”.   

Ray told us in his paper, “Why does God love us” that we are all unique ; we need individual “chiselling”, but at the same time, with the need to “fit together” with other “selected stones”.     

 Quote from Ray:

So what is there about you individually that can be found in no other person? Why does God need you when He has so many billions of others? Surely there can be nothing in us individually that is lacking in all other persons on earth, is there? So why can we possibly be of such great value that God would die for us? Each of us? What do you have that none other can fulfil?
And the answer is: Your "UNIQUENESS."    [End of quote.]

Unlike those who assemble in their physical churches, our treatment, our “assembling” today is different.   I think we are being dealt with individually, so that we can all be truly “assembled”, spiritually, in due time.   Just like the stones of the physical Temple.   

Although most of us cannot be physically near to one another at this time, the day is coming when we will "rub shoulders spiritually".       Colin

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