> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Mike Gagne:
continued from last post.
Here are the ONLY four scriptures on the second death, but in order for me to show you what I believe is the second death ,we first have to look at all the scriptures containing
resurrection or the first resurrection. There are 40 verses found with the word resurrection in them and only two of them mention the first resurrection. And one suggest a resurrection on to life and judgement. lets see what it says
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
When his righteous judgement are in the earth ( they don’t lead to death, but to life ) the inhabitants will learn righteousness.
These mention the first resurrection
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
There is no mention of a second resurrection through out the whole bible. Even though there are many resurrections they will all be the first resurrection. Now back to the second death
Four scriptures on the second death and I added one scripture with them Rev: 20-5 And should we also remember, Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( a resurrection at a different time,and still their first and only resurrection )
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ( his only resurrection, and all the rest will only have a first resurrection as above scripture says ) ) on such the second death hath no power,( The second death will have power over know one!! ) but they ( the elect ) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.( what is the symbolism of death and hell, is it not the law of sin and death and the grave! ) This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: ( would not that be the symbolism of Sin ) which is the second death.
Death and hell are brought before judgement in the lake of fire ( Jesus and his elect are the lake of fire ) and judgement leads to life.
Lrays quote
THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
There is no second death for man because he is only appointed to die ONCE.. Judgement leads to life.
No, whats cast into the lake of fire is the law of sin and death, thats the second death, the death of the law of sin and death. And there was no more DEATH
Can you see it?
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me:
In Christ Michael
Kat:
Michael, let me see if I can explain this again.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
This once to die is speaking of the physical/literal death that every person in this age must happen to. Now I see where we are not seeing it the same way, that is the understanding of the second death.
This second death is not the literal cessation of physical life like the first 'once to die,' it is judgment, and that means correction, purging and being cleansed of all carnality. This judgment which happens to the few elect in this life, in this age is that process of correction that last the rest of their lives. As Ray explained it is after being baptized into His death - 'once to die,' then is judgement, a 'spiritual' second death of being corrected/chastened.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
All of the elect will then go on the die physically, and await the first resurrection in the grave.
The rest of the human race will 'die once' a physical death... as Adam represented all humanity that partake of the tree of life, experience good and evil and then die a physical death. All those that have NOT received the Holy Spirit indwelling, whose names are NOT written in the "Book of Life - Christ, these are all the dead that ever lived that will be raised back up to a physical life in the next age, with their same old carnal human beast nature. They are resurrected to judgment/correction, which is a spiritual second death of their carnality, which will be a process just as it is for the elect in this age.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14 Then Death (the physical death) and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Yes "there shall be no more death" in the next age, when Christ returns this age of "the law of sin and death" will come to a end. He will reign with the elect in the great white throne JUDGMENT period/age, when all of the world, everybody that has ever lived, will be taught righteous.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.
This is from the article in the LoF 16 E. 'Hades and the Second Death.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).
"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).
"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).
But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:
1.The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.
2.The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.
3.We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.
v
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.
Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.
v
All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:08). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
------------------------------------------------------------------
If we still cannot agree on this, instead of just talking in circles we can just leave it here, for now anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Kat, let me see if I can explain this again,
Heres all the scriptures LRay point out
--- Quote ---"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).
"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).
"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5)
--- End quote ---
Everyone of those scriptures are saying
casting and plucking which leads to life, why is Paul dying daily? Because he killing his flesh and how is he killing his flesh, by JUDGEMENT and judgement doesn't lead to death, no judgement leads to LIFE.
here is your quote and part of LRays quote you refer to
--- Quote ---This second death is not the literal cessation of physical life like the first 'once to die,' it is judgment, and that means correction, purging and being cleansed of all carnality. This judgment which happens to the few elect in this life, in this age is a process. As Ray explained it is after they are baptized into His death - 'once to die,' then is their judgement, a 'spiritual' second death of being corrected/chastened.
--- End quote ---
How can you have a spiritual death when the order is first physical and THEN the spiritual. You can't die spiritually if you are not born in the spirit. No that whole comment does't make sense.
If man is appointed to more then on death then you will have to remove most of the scriptures and all the ones I posted before in the last few reply.
LRays quote
--- Quote ---Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
--- End quote ---
All I can say to that is, Prov 30:6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
Lays Quote
--- Quote ---For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.
--- End quote ---
Oh really is there a chapter and verse on that?
Now I showed you what the second death was and who was effected by it , read it over and over until you see it, its right there!!
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( a resurrection at a different time,and still their first and only resurrection )
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ( his only resurrection, and all the rest will only have a first resurrection as above scripture says ) ) on such the second death hath no power,( The second death will have power over know one!! ) but they ( the elect ) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.( what is the symbolism of death and hell, is it not the law of sin and death and the grave! ) This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: ( would not that be the symbolism of Sin ) which is the second death.
There is no second death for man because he is only appointed to die ONCE.. Judgement leads to life.
No, whats cast into the lake of fire is the law of sin and death, thats the second death, the death of the law of sin and death. And there was no more DEATH
And I am not talking in circle...
Michael
Kat:
Michael, if you cannot understand what Ray stated, as those last 2 quotes you put in your post are from Ray's article. We need to let this go for now, as I do not know what else to tell you. Maybe review his LoF article E. 'Hades and the Second Death' again.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Kat that will be fine! I will not read them again.
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me:
In Christ Michael
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