> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Kat:
Hi Wittenburg, when a person is actually born into the kingdom at the first resurrection, they will receive a glorious spiritual body, immortal and imperishable. They will then be "like Christ" (1John 3:2) and will raise up to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Th_4:17).
1Cor 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
v. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
For now the elect are only begotten, having an earnest/promise of His Spirit,
2Cor 1:21 Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
v. 22 who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (that's talking about the elect), to the praise of His glory.
Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.
v. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal (eonian) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Those Scripture should show you that the elect are given the Holy Spirit now as a promise for what is to come, eonian/age-enduring Life, in perfect unity with God. Those that join with God in the first resurrection will be perfected as He is, they will not be in the flesh and not subject to sin.
John 17:20 "I do not pray for these (the disciples) alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
v. 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
It all begins when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, but that is just the beginning the believer must "endure to the end" of this life, never losing hope and remaining faithful then will be in the first resurrection.
Matt 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible (G862), and we shall be changed.
G862
aphthartos - undecaying (in essence or continuance): - not (in-, un-) corruptible, immortal.
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4 to an inheritance incorruptible (G862) and undefiled (G283) and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
G283
amiantos - unsoiled, that is, (figuratively) pure: - undefiled.
So it is a process, those that are elect were always meant to be so, all their lives they are being prepared, and ends when a person is united/joined with Christ and becomes one with God, perfected, at the first resurrection.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
v. 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Hi Kat,
LRays quote
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
End of quote
THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH ( if man is appointed once to die , how can he die twice? And if so Shouldn’t the writer of Hebrews said it is appointed on to man to die twice, once in his first death and once in his second death ? ) OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
Is he stating we die twice? And if so how can that be? The scripture says man is appointed once to die.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment:
The next verse seems to agree with this verse,
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ( meaning everyone ). and unto them ( them who died once ) that look for him shall he ( he that died once ) appear the second time without sin unto salvation. ( No second death )
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ( are appointed death through baptism )
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,( thats how we die our appointed death, thought baptism ) that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ( No second death )
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, ( your appointed death ) and your life is hid with Christ in God.
How can you die twice, I can not find it the scriptures!
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment:
LRays quote
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.
There are the only four scriptures that have the second death mentioned
These two scriptures are both witness’s two that fact that the second death will not hurt and will have no power over the elect!
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh ( those who died in the first death they were appointed to, ) shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection : upon these,( those who died in the first death they were appointed to,) the second death, hath no authority; but they shall be priest of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
So how can they be apart of the second death?
And these two tell us what the second death is
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment: DOES JUDGEMENT BRING DEATH?
How can Judgement be the second death death, if you are only appointed to die once, Or for that matter the first death?
The order in that scriptures is ( #1) to die once, ( #2 ) after this judgment
I do not see two deaths in that statement! No I see one death and one judgement onto salvation which is Life In Christ Jesus. No second death. For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death. Do the scriptures say that you are to die two deaths? Or is it when the first time death comes, it comes to the elect and the second time death comes, it comes to the many and death and hell?
Isa 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
What is judgement ?
This is what LRay said Judging was, heres his quote,
Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!
"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
End of quote
For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death
I do not see any death in that statement! No I see judgement that leads to Life
I wonder why Paul never said it is appointed to man to die many, many deaths?
1Co 15:31 I face death every day. That is true, brothers and sisters, just as it is true that I am proud of what you are because of Christ Jesus our Lord.
Fire does not bring death
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
1 Peter 1:6 (KJV)
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Michael
Kat:
--- Quote from: Michael G on April 01, 2016, 01:43:59 AM ---
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment: DOES JUDGEMENT BRING DEATH?
How can Judgement be the second death death, if you are only appointed to die once, Or for that matter the first death?
The order in that scriptures is ( #1) to die once, ( #2 ) after this judgment
I do not see two deaths in that statement! No I see one death and one judgement onto salvation which is Life In Christ Jesus. No second death. For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death. Do the scriptures say that you are to die two deaths? Or is it when the first time death comes, it comes to the elect and the second time death comes, it comes to the many and death and hell?
--- End quote ---
Michael, you understand that the elect die once in being baptized into Christ... their second death IS their judgment in this life. As Ray stated "THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH," so the judgment the the elect are going through in this life means the same thing as their second death.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
That putting to death our carnality is the second death judgment on the elect now, it is dying to self, a process that goes on the rest of our physical lives, as Paul said "I die daily" (1Cor 15:31), this is our judging ourselves.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves (now in this life), we would not be judged (in the next age with the rest of the world's second death).
v. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
Christ explained this judging (second death) of ourselves, as symbolically cutting off or plucking out those things or the carnality we have.
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting (eonian) fire.
v. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire.
All the times the scripture mention the "second death" it is speaking of the world's judgment in the next age, it never implies the term to the elect, we surmise it. Remember there are many mysteries in the Scripture, lots of things are not spoken out right, we have to look for the meaning of these things through putting many Scripture together.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
jingle52:
Thank you Kat, you always point us in the right direction :) Enjoyed this thread.
Jingle
Mike Gagne:
Hi Kat
I still do not agree with your quote
your quote
Michael, you understand that the elect die once in being baptized into Christ... their second death IS their judgment in this life. As Ray stated "THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH," so the judgment the the elect are going through in this life means the same thing as their second death.
End of quote
And here is Lrays quote
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
End of quote
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
As LRay said it was already in her heart
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Thats it, the law of sin and death. Thats the death you are appointed to die to once. I have shown you in other scriptures and here is a few more,
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord
In my previous post # 86 there is one death and one life! And same as above.
There is no second death for man, he is only appointed once to die.
So whats the second death,
Here is the ONLY four scriptures that mention the second death i will continue in next post.
Michael
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