> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Mike Gagne:
Hi Porter,
--- Quote from: Porter on March 29, 2016, 11:35:04 PM ---No matter how many times I read that from Ray, I could never understand what it meant to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" till today. It's like the blinders were kept in place till now. Not sure why. Anyway great discussion!
--- End quote ---
Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter
Michael
Mike Gagne:
But I see I am still having problem with all this
Here is a couple quotes from lake of fires series Part 16 hades and second death,
--- Quote ---But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:8).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
--- End quote ---
Now couple scriptures that state the elect will not be harmed by the second death and that the second death is the lake of fire. So do they really go into the second death if it has no power over them?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
And then these verse's which states what is the second death
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Can anyone see a problem with that? Or is it just some thing I am over looking?
thats why I posted this comment I thought this was right, heres my quote
--- Quote ---Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter
--- End quote ---
Ok I still need others input on this, because I see problem. HELP!! Please.
Michael
Wittenberg:
Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
Kat:
--- Quote from: Michael G on March 31, 2016, 01:09:36 PM ---
Now couple scriptures that state the elect will not be harmed by the second death and that the second death is the lake of fire. So do they really go into the second death if it has no power over them?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
And then these verse's which states what is the second death
Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Can anyone see a problem with that? Or is it just some thing I am over looking?
thats why I posted this comment I thought this was right, heres my quote
--- Quote ---Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter
--- End quote ---
Ok I still need others input on this, because I see problem. HELP!! Please.
Michael
--- End quote ---
Michael, in the article Ray was explaining how the elect "die once" and then they are under judgment according to this Scripture.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
For the elect they "die once" in being spiritually baptized into Jesus, symbolically being buried in the baptism water and raised out of that in "newness of life" - spiritual life, the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is not a ritual in a church, but it happens in the life of every elect.
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
So then after this spiritual baptism happens to a believer, then they are going through "after this the judgment," that is the 'second death' for them that happens in this life, in this age.
1Cor 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, "For Your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
Now for the rest of the world the order in the Hebrew's verse is more obvious. They die once a physical death as all in this age must, then when they are raised up in the next age they will enter the great white throne judgment - lake of fire - second death.
All the Scripture that you posted is of the next age, the age of judgment for the world, their "second death" of which the elect will not need further judgment at that time. No, the "second death" of the next age will have no power over the elect, because they will already have been raised and perfected in the first resurrection... the elect actually are the lake of fire, they are those that will judge the world under Christ.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
v. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
--- Quote from: Wittenberg on March 31, 2016, 02:30:06 PM ---Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
--- End quote ---
Remember these Scripture.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
Once the Holy Spirit is indwelling, Christ is directing our lives and they're then under the atoning sacrifice of Christ and all sin past, present and future are forgiven. Now though we still sin for as long as we are in this flesh body, those sins are used as teaching lessons for correction/chastisement by the Spirit. But the chosen few have "no condemnation" and that's how they are "set free from sin."
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
v. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
v. 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Wittenberg:
Kat, I obviously agree with those scripture. Yet I have never met someone that doesn't sin. I believe someday I won't sin anymore while having a physical body. I don't know what needs to happen that enables me to not sin after my earthly death. I always assumed that my sinful nature won't exist after resurrection, but I don't know if that's scriptural. If you have a reference on that, that would be great.
Thanks
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