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1 Cor 15:51
Mike Gagne:
Thanks Kat, excellent!! :D
What a blessing to have a place to come where those that are before you in the Lord can encourage and edify those who come after.
Michael
Mike Gagne:
Hi Anthony, to your original question,
Hi Kat, now I see what your saying in reply #5
--- Quote ---There are many Scripture that speaks of what happens in this age and it is certain that nobody will escape death, which Michael shows many Scripture that says so. Paul says that the few elect will be "changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1Cor 15:51, 52). Yes this is only the elect that will be "changed" and have glorious spiritual bodies and go to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess 4:17).
But when it comes to all the people that will be living on earth when the next age heralds in, we do not see Scripture that speaks of anything happening to them. Here is a passage in Revelation that speaks directly to the beginning of the next age, the elect are already resurrected "new Jerusalem" descending to earth with Christ announces to the people on earth that He is returning to live with them on earth. That passage says "there shall be no more death" and nothing of all the unconverted people being killed or dying, nor does any other Scripture I know of.
Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
v. 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
--- End quote ---
This is what came to me when I reread the starting of this thread until I hit your post Kat
Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death ( the gehenna fire ) their first death and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, which would be their first death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the second death ( physical ) would have no effect on them. So the second death is for those who have died once physically and will be resurrected into there second death the lake of fire and they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!
So there could be billions of people who never taste physical death, I see that, is that what you were saying Kat?
R.P and J In Christ Michael
Kat:
Hi Michael, here is where Ray has explained this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----------------------------------
As we shall see, Jesus has "the keys of hades and of death." Jesus can therefore unlock the gates when He gathers His Elect at His coming, and receive them into His Kingdom. The rest of the dead are resurrected with physical bodies, back to physical life, to enter their SECOND death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect.
v
Death itself will be destroyed, or as the Concordant Version renders it: "the last enemy being abolished: death." (It is more likely to abolish something that is inanimate rather than to destroy it as the King James translates it).
So we have the act, the state, and the cause, all being the definition of "death." Hence all three must be abolished or there will yet remain some form of death which would then continue to be an eternal "enemy" in God's creation.
The lake of fire/second death is how God deals with the sins of humanity. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity (I John 2:2). But what it seems the whole Christian world is failing to see, understand, and experience, is GETTING THE SIN OUT OF THE SINNER.
v
And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:08). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
There is to be judgment upon the wicked and judgment upon God's Elect of The House of God. And both of these groups are judged by the spiritual fire of God Almighty, "For our God IS a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).
FIRE & JUDGMENT on God's Elect:
"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).
FIRE & JUDGMENT on the UNGODLY:
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Pet. 3:7).
Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death" (Rev. 20:14)
and
"the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Rev. 21:08).
v
"And I saw another sign in heaven...And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" (Rev. 15:1 & 2).
Yes, these are the Elect of God who are now before the Throne of God and are standing on a beautiful crystal clear sea of glass. They have been tamed. They have conquered the beast within and the beast of Babylon without. They are shown victorious over the beast, his image, his mark and his name, but it came at a price. Did you notice the words "sea of glass mingled with FIRE?" Yes, the world must go through the fire, the lake of fire/second death, and so must God's Elect. But here they are pictured SAFE (saved) not unlike when Jesus calmed the sea and saved His Own disciples from the raging waves of the sea.
v
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
v
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).
The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Porter:
No matter how many times I read that from Ray, I could never understand what it meant to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" till today. It's like the blinders were kept in place till now. Not sure why. Anyway great discussion!
Mike Gagne:
Hello everyone,
My quote
--- Quote ---Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death ( the gehenna fire ) their first death and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, which would be their first death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the second death ( physical ) would have no effect on them. So the second death is for those who have died once physically and will be resurrected into there second death the lake of fire and they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!
--- End quote ---
Just Editing for clearer understanding. Like to add LRay didn't say anything about those who are alive and remain who are not the elect in the quote that Kat showed that I could see. So this order below is How I,am trying to see when the next age begins with those who are alive when he returns with his elect. And corrections added as well!
Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death, the first Death and then comes judgement ( the second death ) and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time who are not the elect, will be also Baptized into his death, and cast into the lake of fire, which would be the second death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the physical death would have no effect on them. So those who have died once physically and will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire judgement which is the second death, they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!
AS I see it! :) Re edited again today ,the blinders came off ::)
So only the elect are in the first death, and all the rest are in the second death which is the lake of fire. So really physical death has nothing to do with it. The beast must die!!
Michael
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