> General Discussions
Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
Kat:
Hi willemv,
Here ane a few places that discuss these things.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html ------------------
THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’
Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man’s fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------------------
Seeing that Adam and Eve were "carnal-minded" from creation, and that the carnal mind CANNOT love God or be obedient to His laws (Rom. 8:7), no one could do differently than Mother Eve did. No human on earth has ever been found, save Jesus Christ, in whom it can be proved that he or she never did wrong, made a mistake, broke a law, or committed many other such sins.
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam ---------------
As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."
The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?
Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.
Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.
Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:
"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?" Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.
Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?" NO! "...for that ALL have sinned." All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."
A better translation helps our understanding:
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."
They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"
But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD." Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!
Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).
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1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
"The first man Adam" was natural represents all mankind living carnal lives to spiritual weak to not sin. It's not because of Adam's sin that we sin, it's because of the weak carnal nature given to all mankind.
"The last Adam" represents the the life-giving Spirit of God/Christ which is only come into a few now in this age, but all eventually come to all and gives us spiritual life in Christ.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ----------------------
What Christ did could not be put into books—the whole [kosmos] could not contain it.
Jesus did not fulfill the sacrificed sin offering only. Jesus was not merely one offering, but the many offerings, burnt offerings, the meat offering, the peace offerings, the trespass offering, and the sin offering. Jesus also prefigured the priest doing the offering, the meaning of each offering, the compartments and furniture of the tabernacle, the bread, the candles, the curtain, the ark of the covenant, the tabernacle itself, and the whole nation of Israel—Jesus prefigures all and FULFILLED ALL.
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17).
And that is the simple explanation of this marvelous truth. The Scriptures speak of far more than just the prophesies of Jesus coming as the Messiah.
We are all in Adam. We do all that Adam did. We believe in the Spirit what Israel lived in the flesh. All Israel was baptized in the Red Sea. We are all baptized into Christ’s death. And now the last Adam (Christ) lives His life in us (Gal. 2:20), but not until we repent of the first Adam of the flesh living his life in us.
"Then opened He their UNDERSTANDING, that they might UNDERSTAND the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45);
"Consider what I say: and the Lord give you UNDERSTANDING in all things" (II Tim. 2:7).
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an UNDERSTANDING, that we may know Him that is True…" (I John 5:20).
"And you shall know [Gk: ‘sure understanding’—but future] the truth, and the truth shall make [future] you free" (John 8:32)
For three and one-half years Jesus promised that some day His apostles would know the truth. But clear to the end of three and one-half years of learning at the feet of Jesus, the Apostles did not yet understand His teaching, purpose or plan. One day they were blind to these truths, and the next they understood. How is that possible?
We have clearly seen that Jesus kept the real meaning and truths of His teaching from the masses, the church leaders, His disciples and even His apostles. Late in Christ’s ministry, we are told that:
"And they understood NONE OF THESE THINGS: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN" (Luke 18:34).
But after His resurrection, Luke tells us that:
"THEN opened He their understanding, that they might understand THE SCRIPTURES: (Luke 24:45).
Maybe, TODAY, will be the day that God begins to "open your understanding of the Scriptures."
Jesus said to His disciples:
"…ALL THINGS must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, CONCERNING ME. Then opened He their understanding…" (Luke 24:44-45).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Hi Wim, I only agree with one point in your whole statement!
--- Quote ---I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning
--- End quote ---
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
CLV Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready before hand, that we should be walking in them."
CLV Eph 4:24 and to put on the new humanity which, in accord with God, is being created in righteousness and the benignity of the truth."
As Kat has said in her post Adam never had a fall! But to say one is doomed also doesn't sound right. Maybe Adams flesh was doomed but not Adam himself. Everyone qualifies and no one is doomed and why?
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
Only the First Fruit Jesus is born of God and the first fruits are awaiting there birth ( or resurrection ) and then the rest in their order the FULL harvest. Do I see any doom in there? No
Michael
Kat:
--- Quote from: Michael G on March 18, 2016, 12:31:57 PM ---Hi Wim, I only agree with one point in your whole statement!
--- Quote ---I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning
--- End quote ---
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
CLV Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready before hand, that we should be walking in them."
CLV Eph 4:24 and to put on the new humanity which, in accord with God, is being created in righteousness and the benignity of the truth."
As Kat has said in her post Adam never had a fall! But to say one is doomed also doesn't sound right. Maybe Adams flesh was doomed but not Adam himself. Everyone qualifies and no one is doomed and why?
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
Only the First Fruit Jesus is born of God and the first fruits are awaiting there birth ( or resurrection ) and then the rest in their order the FULL harvest. Do I see any doom in there? No
Michael
--- End quote ---
Okay here is my quote, "does a day go by when a human being does not sin in one way or another? I don't think so and neither did they, so they were doomed for destruction/lost/perished as all humanity is in this life, accept a very few that will be saved in this life."
Here is the definition of doom - 1 : judgment; esp : a judicial condemnation or sentence 2 : destiny 3 : ruin, death— doom vb
Here is where Ray spoke on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------------
So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
v
A word study will clearly show anyone that Jesus came to SAVE those who are and will be destroyed. And do I have a Scripture on that? I am glad that you asked. Here is a beautiful lesson that will show us just how important it sometimes is to know from what original word a word in our English translations came.
Here is the temporary fate of most humanity:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).
Did Jesus come to SAVE all those who enter the broad gate to "destruction?" YES HE DID:
"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST" (Matt. 18:11)!
There it is!
There is what? Where does that verse say that Jesus came to "SAVE that which was DESTROYED?" Why right in the verse, of course. You see, the New Testament was written in GREEK, and in Greek, here is what Matt. 18:11 says: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was apollumi." And just what does apollumi mean in English? Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament: "#622 {92x} apollumi to destroy, to perish, or lose" (page 37). Ninety-two times in the New Testament we read of "destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost, and they are all translated from the same one word, apollumi! So whether one is destroyed, perished, or lost, it matters not to Jesus—HE SAVES THEM ALL!
Old Testament too:
"O Israel, you have DESTROYED yourself; but in Me is your help… I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death…" (Hosea 13:7 & 14)!
"The righteous PERISH, and no man lays it to heart…" (Isa. 57:1)
And concerning lost Israel God says,
"I will seek that which was LOST, and bring again that which was driven away…" (Ezek. 34:16).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Hi Kat, yes I agree with that. Didn't know what the word doomed really meant. But was it not his carnal nature that was doomed and not him himself? As I said Adams flesh was doomed, but not Adam himself, and I said that because As in Adam All die, but also in Christ All shall be made alive. I was referring it to his carnal nature, so when His righteous judgements are in the earth, we all will learn righteousness. And the carnal nature will die but we will be saved with fire. And we will all be in his children. Thats why I didn't see it as doom for Adam but for his flesh, because we all will be the children of God.
lol need lots of grammar work :-\
Michael.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Wittenberg on March 15, 2016, 04:23:52 PM ---I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?
Thanks
--- End quote ---
It's a bit hard to answer the question, as I don't believe Adam "fell". The woman was deceived. The man was not. In that way, the man and THE MAN are similar. (as are the woman and THE WOMAN).
I also tend to think of 'men' in the natural as not YET men in the Spiritual. It's not 'wrong' to call people of a certain age 'men'. It's not even wrong to include 'women' in 'men'. But all of "us" men in the Spiritual are not yet even born.
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