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Luke 23:43
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: octoberose on March 27, 2016, 04:15:53 AM ---I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy. I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life? I'm just perplexed.
As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons.
--- End quote ---
If there is a solid chronology in this, it is that Jesus died, bodies came out of death, they stayed in the tombs (not the same as the 'graves' we are accustomed to in the US and most of the west--more akin to the 'graveyards') until after His resurrection, then went into the city. But there may not be an exact chronology for the 'event' of their being raised out of 'sleep'. In any event, I don't think this is the 'Resurrection of the dead' that Jesus experienced and those in Him will experience in like manner. People rose from sleep both before and after this event. Maybe, from time to time, it STILL happens. They did not raise with incorruptible bodies. I don't know if this is the point you were questioning, but thought I'd slip it in here.
As for the Old Testament saints not being in the first resurrection, here's a couple of additional verses to consider:
Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Are the saints and prophets of Old included among those who have NOT SEEN Him, yet believed? I think so.
The Chosen are under a New Covenant, one which is not in accord with the Old, and is Superior. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up... There is a Divine order to all these things. Looking at it both practically and Spiritually, this is the right order that He's established. It is the most powerful order, and the one of most benefit to all concerned...that's everybody.
Dave in Tenn:
Please take any back-and-forth discussion to PM. We're not going to have it on the open forum.
Mike Gagne:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on March 27, 2016, 07:16:35 PM ---Please take any back-and-forth discussion to PM. We're not going to have it on the open forum.
--- End quote ---
Sorry Dave and others your right
Kat:
--- Quote from: octoberose on March 27, 2016, 04:15:53 AM ---I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy. I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life? I'm just perplexed.
As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons.
--- End quote ---
I do believe that those people raised back to life at the death of Jesus, was a profound event to mark of the magnitude of what had just happened. And I do believe they were believers, saints and many translations have it, who were given a physical life again (as were others resurrected by Jesus and even the apostles lives), but they lived on to die as all people do. But it would seem to have been a great witness to the believers at the time and even for us now, that Jesus' death was no ordinary death, and God signified it with the raising up of some that believed in Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: willemv on March 25, 2016, 05:28:04 AM ---Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !
When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.
Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim
--- End quote ---
The SUM of God's word is truth. Its really not hard at all to find witnesses to the idea that no man has currently ascended to heaven but our Lord. There are many witnesses to the fact that when a man dies, he is dead, not in paradise. He awaits the ressurection.
Psalm 6:4-5 Turn, Lord! Rescue me; save me because of Your faithful love. For there is no remembrance of You in death; who can thank You in the grave?
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hands find to do, do with all your strength, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Death is likened to sleep in the scriptures.
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
Deuteronomy 31:16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers...
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption...
Even Jesus likens the state of the dead to that of sleep:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." (John 11:11-13).
When do the dead awaken from their sleep where they know not anything? Instantly as the theif being immediately in paradise?
(Notice too that like God, Paul, under inspiration of the Spirit likens death to sleep)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, He will raise all the dead back to life.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The dead really are dead. They aren't up in heaven or down in hell. The whole of scripture testifies to this truth, both old and new testament.
Jesus also said no man has gone up to heaven, not even the theif!
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man.
Do you think Jesus knows what He's talking about?
And just incase it isn't already clear, the Resurrection isn't a past thing:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Its still future, that 'LAST trumpet' (See above verses for reference) when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom!
This is precisely why NO VERSE is at all becoming its OWN interpretation! That in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2Pe_1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."
Psa_119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."
Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
In Christ,
Alex
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