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The Ages
Dave in Tenn:
I want to go back to the original questions and the thoughts that sprung from them. I read this yesterday and thought of this thread.
From Lake 12--
WHAT SINS ARE TORMENTED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE?
Here are the character flaws and sins that need "tormenting" in the lake of fire:
"But the fearful [timid], and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers [paramours], and sorcerers [enchanters], and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Were the Apostles of our Lord "idolaters?" No.
Were the Apostles of our Lord "sorcerers?" No.
Were the Apostles of our Lord "whoremongers?" No.
Were the Apostles of our Lord "murderers?" No.
Were the Apostles of our Lord "abominable?" No.
Were the Apostles of our Lord "unbelieving?" YES.
Were the Apostles of our Lord "fearful [timid]?" YES.
And were the Apostles of our Lord "all liars?" YES they were.
Is it absolutely necessary that even the "fearful and unbelieving" and all tellers of little white lies, must be cast into "TORMENT?" Yes … yes it is.
"And straightway [immediately] Jesus constrained [force, entreaty, threat, persuasion—not too dissimilar from being ‘cast into the lake of fire’] His disciples to get into a ship…" (Matt. 14:23).
At this time in Christ’s ministry, the apostles were still unconverted. It will shock most people to realize that Jesus went to the cross, never having converted a single disciple! They were not truly converted until the Day of Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit of God WITHIN themselves. They were not, however, all, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, and idolaters. But they ALL possessed two or three of the character flaws mentioned in Rev. 21:8—they were all "fearful [timid] and unbelieving."
Jesus specifically points out these character flaws to them all by an ACTUAL EXPERIENCE! In other words, the disciples proved TO THEMSELVES that they were fearful, unbelieving, and liars: "…and they cried out for FEAR" (Matt. 14:26). And they all doubted that it was Jesus walking on the water, so Jesus both reprimanded and encouraged them:
"Be of good cheer; it is I; be NOT afraid… O you of little faith, wherefore did you DOUBT" (Vers. 17 & 31).
"And Jesus said unto them [His apostles], ALL YE shall be offended [turn against me, desert me, fall away, fall from your faith] because of Me this night…" (Mark 14:27).
And so we read that they were "tossed [TORMENTED] by the waves." They were being TRIED UNDER PRESSURE as when using a touchstone.
We have already proved that "the fire shall try every man’s work" in I Cor. 3:13 is a spiritual match with Rev. 20:13 & 15 where "they were judged every man according to their works … in the lake of fire" And in both cases the "fire" is God’s SPIRIT. God’s spirit burns spiritual character flaws out of the hearts of mankind in a similar way in which literal fire burns up and abolishes wood, straw, and stubble. And since we are the Body of Christ and we too are made "flames of fire," then we also judge the deeds of men’s hearts.
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"But the fearful [timid], and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers [paramours], and sorcerers [enchanters], and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
As Ray said, His disciples were not guilty of all of the above. Yet they were guilty of some of the above.
If people are to be saved in the Lake of fire, and if Salvation is FROM something, not "spiritual" mustard smeared on us, what does salvation FROM each of the above entail?
What is salvation from timidity? What is salvation from unbelief? What is salvation for abomination? What is salvation from the committing of murder? What is salvation from whoremongering? What is salvation from enchanting? What is salvation from idolatry? What is salvation from lying?
If the salvation (real and meaningful) of these "types" of people is accomplished, then what is salvation from the timidity of others? From unbelievers? From abomination? From murderers? From whoremongers? From being enchanted? From idol-worshippers? From liars?
I think scripture gives us good "instruction" on how the Apostles overcame these evils within themselves through "gehenna fire" in the ways they needed to. I reckon they had already BEEN saved from the other things by having never to have experienced them. What came out of their "salvation" from these three things they WERE guilty of?
MAYBE, by seeing this example, we can "imagine" the way those guilty of the "other" sins are to be saved from them.
I don't really have a point, except as encouragement and to build faith. I just want to tuck this into the "discussion" for anybody who asks these kinds of questions, or would like to.
Ray said Jesus' chosen twelve were unbelievers, timid and liars. They were when He called them and they remained so until He came to dwell within them.
rick:
Hi Dave,
According to Ray we all have the potential to be all these thing's, our acting on them would be according to our circumstances, Ray taught us if we had the same circumstances as Adolph we would of done the same thing.
All the evil I have seen in the world as much as it turns my stomach is in me. That's what God is showing me.
Even though I have not physically murdered a person the potential is there in me to do such a thing, I understand now why one condemns themself when they pass judgement on those who do all these things.
I think perhaps for the first time even though I've read it a hundred times I understand the problem is not from without but from within, I am that beast Ray has spoken of, the problem with all these things I see in the world are within me.
It's shocking to me because I've always thought of myself as ok but God shows me I will be ok but now I'm far from ok.
You brought out some things for me to think about .
God bless.
Dave in Tenn:
Could be the apostles didn't have this knowledge until after their conversion. Beyond simply having the "potential", being a disciple of Christ means "Not committing murder" even in our hearts.
But anyway, this is about the "next age". Largeli asked, "How long?" Well, how long did it take for Saul to be converted? Then how long did it take for him to be thoroughly tried and tested? I reckon that's how long the Lake of Fire will burn.
rick:
I don't have a clue as to the duration of time in the lake of fire, I know for us its going to be for the rest of our lives.
How long does it take God to give us all a new heart and our minds are no longer carnal ?
God bless.
octoberose:
The question I have is after thr return of Christ and the gathering of His own from the grave and from the living and the "1000 " year reign with Him - is everone else whi is on earth to learn righteousness? Even those who have already died? It will be a very full earth.
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