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lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: largeli on July 11, 2016, 05:13:06 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on July 11, 2016, 01:08:53 PM ---
--- Quote from: largeli on July 11, 2016, 12:57:50 PM ---What should making disciples look like today?

Matt 28:19
"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

--- End quote ---

Spurious Passage, not authentic, the making disciples part nor baptizing in name of the trinity--Father, Son, holy spirit.

Do you have a second witness?

--- End quote ---

No not off the top of my head I can't think of a second passage.. But since you said this passage is not authentic, I take it you don't believe there is a second passage?

So what does it mean when there's not a second witness? Does that mean it's not true or that it should be taken out or disregarded?

I'm not clear on what the whole second witness thing means.. I always thought that was in reference to when one person accuses another person and the judge should not condemn a person based on just one persons testimony..  isn't the bible filled with statements that are not necessarily repeated again? One gospel says that both men on the crosses next to Christ hurled insults at Him.. Not only is there not a second witness to this (to my knowledge) but there is a witness that says one of the men on the cross next to Him asked Him to remember him. As far as I know there aren't second witnesses to these so should we not accept either of these as truth?

--- End quote ---

Hi Largeli,

Jesse provided some good information. Here are the scriptures regarding the witnesses;

2 Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.

1 Corinthians 2:12-15 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word (doctrine) may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

The scriptures are the witnesses because they are who testify of God and in their multitude their is safety!

Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Every word and doctrine we believe is testified to by the cloud of witnesses, the multitude of counselors, the two anointed ones who stand before the Lord of all the earth. It must be or it is not truth.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Zechariah 4:11-14
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Jesus' words are spirit and to understand spirit you need to compare spiritual with spiritual. And to compare something with something else you need those two witnesses.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Lastly, what you establish as doctrine cannot contradict the other truths of scripture (established in the mouth of two or three witnesses) because the Sum of God's Word is truth.

Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

In regards to your Matthew post. There is good evidence Matthew was originally written in Hebrew even though the oldest intact copies we have left are greek. There are many early christian's who are quoted as referencing this original hebrew work by the apostle Matthew.

Its likely that Matthew 28:19 was inserted along with some of the other verses regarding the trinity in a translation of the original hebrew to greek early on. The earliest copy of the hebrew matthew we have dates around 1300 BC but in it, this specific verse, does not contain the 'making of disciples' nor the trinity reference. The problem with this hebrew copy is we can't prove its a copy of the original hebrew gospel of matthew the apostle wrote though some scholars believe this to be true for good reason. All the greek versions, to my knowledge, contain the verse you cited as you quoted it so it won't appear as spurious by Professor Tindall in his work of spurious passages.

The closest witness I can think of to the one in Matthew is probably much more like what the original apostle had penned himself;

Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

God bless,
Alex

Kat:

Hi largeli,  the list of spurious passages, sentences, and words that we have posted here compiled by Tischendorf, are based on his careful and analytical study of the Sinaitic manuscript (the earliest complete copy of the New Testament) and the Vatican #1209. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html

This is a major aspect of understanding that Ray taught and we can see what does not have real validity or authenticity in translated Bibles from the original manuscripts. So with those passages being shown to be questionable to say the least, we can come to a more accurate understanding of truth, as Scriptural truth is built one Scripture upon another, a falsehood will just not fit.

As we all have seen in the church one Scripture can be manipulated and twisted to derive a meaning from it. But when you have a second or more Scripture witnesses and perspectives for a truth it makes it much more difficult to give a false meaning to it. The more Scripture you have on a subject the better.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html --------

The great thing is, if what you are studying you believe to be the truth, then it is going to PROVE to be the truth. The more you study, it is going to prove to be the truth. I’ve been doing that with several subjects and no matter what direction I go, no matter where I go or how I go about it, what I knew to be the truth last year or five years ago, it’s still the truth.
v
If something is really true, now it doesn’t matter if you know it’s true or not. If it is really is true, then the more you study, the more you look, the more you examine, the deeper you go, if that subject really is true, what you discover will add credence to the fact that it is truth. If it is not true, if it’s false, then the more you study the more you look, the more detailed you go, the deeper you go, the more evidence you have that it’s not true.
v
2Tim 3:16  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When you read and study the Scriptures APPLY THEM ALL TO YOURSELF for either “doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
v
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
v. 18  For he that in these things serves Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
v. 19  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

How well do you read and study God Word?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study (that means put forth effort, to be prompt, to be earnest, to be diligent, to endeavor to study, to labor) to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Therefore, we should be doing right, not just to avoid wrath or to receive a reward, but rather because doing good to others IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
v
If you read your Bible daily and study them thoroughly and follow and do what it admonishes… think on these things… meditate on God’s laws… God’s ways… forgive everyone and love everyone.  Follow and do these instructions everyday for the rest of your lives and you will BECOME WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT! You will be ready to take on responsibilities in God’s Kingdom.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

indianabob:
Hi Alex,
Very helpful commentary.
Did you mean to say that Matthew dated to 1300 BC?

The earliest copy of the hebrew matthew we have dates around 1300 BC but in it,...

Indiana bob

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: indianabob on July 11, 2016, 10:03:36 PM ---Hi Alex,
Very helpful commentary.
Did you mean to say that Matthew dated to 1300 BC?

The earliest copy of the hebrew matthew we have dates around 1300 BC but in it,...

Indiana bob

--- End quote ---

Hi Bob,

Matthew greek copies earliest dating i think are ~50-150AD. You'd have to google though the exact date. What i was saying though is the original language matthew wrote his gospel in was in hebrew and then translated to greek based on it and that's the earliest we have now is the greek translations. However there exists a copy of the hebrew but tthat earliest copy dates ~1300-1400 and so the greek versions go back further even though it seems the very first gospel matthew penned was in hebrew. So this hebrew copy could be argued to be translated from the greek and not a copy of the original passed down through the centuries but like I said there is evidence it may be a copy of the hebrew and not a translation from the greek, case and point being how this hebrew version lacks the reference to making disiciples and the trinity which all the greek versions appear to have.

Hopefully that makes sense. There is ample evidence to suggest matthew wrote his gospel in hebrew including from jerome himself who translated the greek to latin ~350AD.

lilitalienboi16:
I found these quotes by early christians in regard to Matthews gospel and this topic.

apias (150-170 CE) – Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able. [A quote by Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 3:39]

Ireneus (170 CE) – Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. [Against Heresies 3:1]

Origen (210 CE) – The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew. [A quote by Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 6:25]

Eusebius (315 CE) – Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings. [Eccl. Hist. 3:24]

Epiphanius (370 CE) – They [The Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters. [Panarion 29:9:4]

Jerome ( 382 CE) – Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collector came to be an Apostle first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian city of Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist…. makes use of the testimonies of the Old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but that of the Hebrew. [Lives of Illustrious Men, Book 5] [1]

Not sure if these quotes are allowed so mods if i'm overstepping the bounds feel free to remove them.

God bless,
Alex

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