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I feel horrible
cheekie3:
Kat -
Thank you so much.
Absolutely Wonderful and Brilliant.
I love these Scriptures you provide below:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 29, 2016, 04:56:48 PM ---
Hi George, you make a valid point about that those might not be actually speaking of the elect, and that Scripture is very clear in all translations as to what it says "the wicked one does not touch him."
1John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born (begotten) of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
So if this is an absolute truth there has to be a second witness in Scripture to it, I have been searching and I think I finally found it.
2Thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.
And here are a couple more that indicate the same thing.
John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
Psa 97:10 You who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
He sure is Awesome.
You Serve Him Very well Kat.
Kind Regards.
George
Dave in Tenn:
I don't think there is a one of 'us' that has been begotten of God, yet. There is only One begotten of God, to be first among many brethren...but not yet.
Kat:
Dave, I think you must mean we are not 'born' yet?
1John 5:18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him." (CLV)
Concern Christ as the "only begotten Son," was true that when God sent Him into the world as flesh and blood to die He was His only begotten at that time.
1John 4:9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
Here are a couple of emails to give us all a refresher on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html --------------
When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."
Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above."
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born." Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom: "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4452.msg34236.html#msg34236 -----
Hey Ray,
I am listening to your sermons on the Origins of Jesus as I write. But something caught my ear that I hope you can clear up. You stated something along the lines that we will not be adopted into the family of God as the Angels were, but that we will be begotten and that that is a far more intimate relationship with God. Can you then please explain the following scriptures?
Romans 8:15 “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:23 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”
Galatians 4:5 “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”
Ephesians 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”
Strong’s dictionary does not give any alternate definitions for the Greek. I of course am not refuting your statements but maybe I misunderstand you. My understanding is that to be “begotten” is quite different from being “adopted.” Thanks for your time.Roy
Dear Roy: Yes, Strong's does give an alternate to "adoption" for the word "unibotheia," and in fact the "alternate" is his FIRST definition is "the PLACING OF A SON...SONSHIP."
Webster's New Twenteth Century Dictionary Unabridged:"sonship"--"the STATE OF BEING A SON"
Romans 8:15....
"But you have received a spirit of SONSHIP" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
"...but a Spirit which makes us SONS" (The New English Bible)
"...you have received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (Moffatt Translation)
"...you received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (New International Version)
"...but you received a Spirit of SONSHIP" (Emphatic Diaglott).
"...but you got the spirit of SONSHIP" (Concordant Literal New Testament) Etc.
We are not merely adopted into the Family of God, but rather God has "BEGOTTEN us" [Gk: 'beget, be born--regenerate']" (I Pet. 1:3). And: "Being BORN AGAIN [same Greek word], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God..." (Verse 23).
No, our final destination is to be BORN into the Kingdom of God, not just an "adoption." Some bibles do not ever use the word "adoption." Even if we were to accept these Scriptures as "adoption," we still have the added knowledge that we are to be BORN into the Kingdom of God.
We are all "called," but is that our final destiny? No, there is also (in addition to the called) those called ones who are CHOSEN, and even among the chosen, there must be the FAITHFUL (Rev.17:14). Judas was called and chosen, but he was NOT FAITHFUL UNTIL THE END!!
Hope this helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
Dave in Tenn:
1Jn 5:18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;
1Jn 5:19 we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil doth lie; YLT
Yes, I certainly mean that we are not "born yet". I'd like to be able to find the places where Ray taught on the differences of meaning from the Greek word most often translated as begotten. From my brief study, this not only includes "conception" and "birth" but "engendering" (of a thing or an idea), which makes it less "literal".
But I'm stuck with:
1Jn 1:8 If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
1Jn 1:9 If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice."
1Jn 1:10 If we should be saying that we have not sinned, we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
Both of those passages are true, if properly understood and reconciled. From my experience, I relate MUCH MORE to 1John 1:8-10 than to 1John 5:18. It's possible:
1. that ...every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin...isn't talking about us--at least not yet.
or
2. that ...every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin...isn't talking about generic totality of "sin" but a more specific sin or set of sins.
or
3. Both, and/or something else altogether.
These statements appear in the same letter. Seems likely to me there is something in the intervening "verses" that bring the two together.
Kat:
Dave here are some Scripture for you to consider.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous [G1342 - equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous)].
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
Rom 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
v. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
v. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born (begotten) of Him.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
v. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
v. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
v.7 For he who has died ("baptized into His death" Rom 6:3) has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
v. 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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