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Clean Meat and Unclean Meat
Colin:
Hi Alex
Quote: lilitalienboi16 Re: Clean Meat and Unclean Meat « Reply #20 on: 4th September 2016 at 02:04:47 AM » Hi Colin, I have a second witness to Colossians which states the exact same thing and removes all ambiguity about just what these ordinances are.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Now 'law of commandments' does not sound like 'infraction tickets' to me. It does not sound like we are talking about our sins here. No, not at all. [end of quote]
You have been much too superficial in your reading of the passage in Ephesians 2, Alex. Picking out one solitary verse often causes one to lose the theme or the topic under consideration. Let’s ask, what specifically was Paul addressing here? Paul begins his discussion in verse 11.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Paul is making a contrast, isn’t he? Between how the Gentiles USED to be and what they had become then – no longer separated, but unified.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [the words between us are in italics and have been added by translators].
What exactly was the “middle wall” of partition”? The Greek is mesotoichon …….the type is seen in the stone palisade, about three cubits high, which separated the Court of the Gentiles from that of the Jews, to pass which was death to any Gentile.
And how had that come about? Paul goes on to explain:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments [Greek entole] contained in ordinances [Greek dogma] ; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
WHAT was abolished or done away? The ENMITY. And Paul equates that as being the “law of commandments contained in ordinances”.
ἐντολή entolē From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.
Δόγμα dogma From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
And what was the purpose of abolishing this enmity, in other words, abolishing the authoritative decrees?
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both [Jews and Gentiles] unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity [Greek echthra] thereby:
ἔχθρα echthra Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: - enmity, hatred.
It was to RECONCILE. As the last part of the verse says, to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
That’s what Ephesians 2 is all about. It does NOT support your ideas, Alex and John.
If my explaining the Greek is a bother to you John, then what did you think when Ray did the very same thing? I am trying to follow his example…..not lean to my own understanding (Prov. 3:5-7).
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Whatever made you think that you had a “back-up” in quoting Ephesians 2?
You are also trying to “compare apples with oranges”, when you referred us
--- Quote ---: Here is what Ray said on the matter of ordinances. --------- http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165 [end of quote]
I read the entire interchange between Ray and Jason and it centred on Jason’s ideas about “legality” and homosexuality - does not have any relevance to our discussion.
Alex, you are quite correct when you point out the difference between the Ten Commandments being INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant and the “book of the Law” being by the side of the ark.
What is your point? I cannot see what that has to do with whether such items in the “book of the law”, such as the injunction against eating unclean meats, aspects of hygiene and cleanliness, contagious diseases and sex perversion – all of which I have mentioned before – were ever considered by Jesus as fit to be discarded…..so that we can supposedly be “freed” from such commands.
Such a line of thinking is one which I expect to be coming from Satan, as it would hasten the demise of any nation.
In fact, by being on the OUTSIDE, the “book of the law” was more readily available for consultation.
Furthermore, we can read of the reaction when that book was discovered and taken to the king of the day, Josiah. See 2 Kings 22:8-13 Colin
--- End quote ---
Dave in Tenn:
Colin, you've also quit reading too soon, but I can't drag up the entirety of Scripture in a forum post even if I were wise enough to locate all the pertinent Scripture attached to these.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Is becoming like "them that were nigh" the true meaning of "reconciliation" here? Why would He come to preach peace to "them that were nigh" if that were the case? The "circumcision in the flesh made by hands" is no profit. Neither is "un-circumcision in the flesh". "We" gentiles don't become "saints" by taking on the physical practices of the Jews any more than they become saints by taking on the physical practices of the Gentiles. We all become one because we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father. The circumcision made without hands. Knowing that the Law is Spiritual. Saved by grace, through faith...and that, not of ourselvfes...not of works, lest any man should boast. Etc. Etc. Etc. This is how Gentiles in the flesh become Jews in the Spirit. Guess what? This is also how JEWS in the flesh become Jews in the Spirit.
Peter put it like this:
Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid the water that these not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit received, even as we also?
And again and again several times in the same and different words throughout the remainder of Acts.
Now I don't doubt that there is wisdom in these "handwriting of ordinances" in the physical (and huge lessons to be learned in the Spiritual--but who's really interested in that?) But I ask if it is better to be ceremonially clean than to be physically clean? And is it better to be physically clean than Spiritually clean?
Some of the "handwriting of ordinances" CANNOT any longer be physically kept. There is no word in either of the biblical languages which means "forever". Some are covered in the keeping of the 10 Commandments Spiritually (in other words, REALLY, as we know, or ought to know, that the Law is Spiritual). Some seem to have been re-iterated in the Council, but for how long I don't know. Some may even be covered in the wholly encapsulated Law of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind and thy neighbor as thyself"...especially if we truly do love the Lord with all our MINDS. I'll even go out on a limb further and say there are some we ought NOT to keep.
So what can possibly be the harm in physically keeping these wise ordinances? To the body? Mostly none. Indeed, mostly benefit, I reckon. To the Spirit? If you haven't figured this out, I can't much help you.
lilitalienboi16:
Well Colin, Unfortunately for you, an entire reading of Ephesians changes not the fact that these ordinances were more than 'infraction tickets' or a list of past sins which you tried to claim originally.
Colossians 2:10-15
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
I don't think you understand how to read this verse properly. So let me try a couple others and you will see it changes not the fact that these ordinances contained commandments which we are told were nailed to the cross.
(ISV) He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,
(ESV) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
GNB) He abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with himself, in this way making peace.
(Rotherham) The enmity, in his flesh—the law of commandments in decrees—bringing to nought,—that, the two, he might create in himself, into one man of new mould, making peace.
(YLT) the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
(CEV) to destroy the Law of Moses with all its rules and commands. He even brought Jews and Gentiles together as though we were only one person, when he united us in peace.
(HCSB) He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace.
Tell me again how all of this does not support that the ordinances, the same greek word as you showed in both passages, was nailed to the cross as shown in Collisions? Why do you think hiding this verse by burying it amongst a larger discussion occurring in the chapter will somehow make your point? Trying to gloss over it changes not the fact of what is stated in the verse.
So now colin you've brought up zero scriptures which suggest we should keep the old Leviticus laws but instead argued with man's wisdom about why we should. However, there are many witnesses against your argument from all throughout the scriptures. Let's take a look at some of them (again).
Hebrews 8:5-12
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The old covenant and all those levitcal laws, those hand written ordinances that were nailed to the cross, all that physical fleshy ritual stuff, is on the verge of vanishing away! Its DECAYING OLD!
Mark 7:15-16
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Its not what comes from without and enters a man, FOOD, that defiles him!
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
The Kingdom of God has nothing to do with eating and drinking this or that! There is NO unclean meat! Nothing!
You know you're so fond of getting the whole context colin that let me share with you the whole context of Collisions which I failed to due but which may prevented this.
Collisions 2:9-23
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Col 2:23 Such things sound impressive if said in a deep enough voice. They even give the illusion of being pious and humble and ascetic. But they're just another way of showing off, making yourselves look important.
Think the MSG hit that nail on the head.
1 Cor 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
This last one is a warning well to be heeded for all those who think that there is righteousness or any obligiations to be had upon new testament believers in keeping the old laws.
Galatians 5:1-10
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Christ is the end of the law! That includes those levitical laws. His is the body casting the shadow. The reality.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Jesus came to fulfill and He did. It is why He said: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30)
Indeed, it is finished, He is the author and perfecter. We are complete in Him.
Sorry Colin but no amount of worldly wisdom is going to convince me that it is in our best interests to keep the old levitical laws. I will follow God's spirit to where He leads me.
There is safety in the multitude of counselors and I have provided you with a great many of them.
God be with you,
Alex
Kat:
We have to consider why the Israelite were given the rules about clean and unclean meat in the first place... wasn't it to teach a lesson about sin through a physical example? Being unclean in all the ordinates given to Israel came in many forms, but it was all ritualistic and the laws concerning clean and unclean meats were no exception. These were unrelated to health, the ordinances given in Leviticus were concerned with ritual uncleanness and ritual purity. An example of this is in Leviticus 11 where even 'contact' with an unclean animal makes a person or an article unclean, and a ritual was needed for cleansing.
Mark 7:18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
v. 19 because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'
Here when Jesus declared all meats clean, He was simply changing the definition of unclean under the new covenant. No longer did unclean refer to the flesh of certain animals, whether one ate with unwashed hands or a woman was having a menstrual flow, etc. Unclean now took on its true meaning... that these physical types were only a shadow to picture sin.
In Acts 10 of course the primary meaning of Peter's vision was that Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean/unworthy, that God had opened salvation to them also... but that all meats were clean was certainly the secondary implication, how could it be used as the object of the vision otherwise? Christ taught Peter that Gentiles were acceptable by showing him that unclean animals are acceptable. Peter even used the same words "common" (koinos) and "unclean" (akathartos) to describe both the animals and Gentiles.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common(G2839) or unclean(G169).
Acts 10:28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common(G2839) or unclean(G169).
It just seems a clear implication that by the comparison that God has made both Gentiles as well as the unclean animals clean.
Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
v. 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Young's)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Joel:
Re: Clean Meat and unclean meat
1st Timothy 4:1-5
1-Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and the doctrines of devils;
2- Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3-Forbiding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4-For EVERY creature of God is GOOD, and nothing to be refused, IF it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
5-For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Joel
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