> General Discussions
Genesis 5:1
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on September 26, 2016, 04:00:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on September 26, 2016, 01:43:29 PM ---
Let us consider the hebrew word for image to which this entire thread is intimately bound to.
The hebrew word Tselem for image never refers to moral character or 'spiritual image.' It never implies some metaphorical meaning which is what you are suggesting is the real meaning behind 'image.' In fact, if you look up its limited uses in the old testament you will find that in every case it is used to describe some literal physical appearance.
--- End quote ---
I believe Ray called this whole thing an enigma and he never came to a resolution about it. Look at the very Scripture used as the foundation for some of your comments...
Col 1:15 He is the image[/u](G1504 Strong- a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.) of the invisible[/u](G517 Thayer- unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible) God, the firstborn over all creation.
There is the word "image" and you stated it can only mean literal physical appearance... YET it states in the very same sentence of that verse "the invisible God," invisible means - incapable of being seen. Now I know that you may think that means with physical eyes, but does it?
So that is why this topic just cannot be discussed here to any debt, there is a lack of agreement on this that always leads to debating. Sure we could all continue to give our differing reasoning about these things, but who do you believe. We can develop our own ideas of what God is, but I guess it just shouldn't be declared as a statement of fact, not here. It's just best to leave this topic alone.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I did say the 'Hebrew' form of the word 'Image' which is what ray pointed out. Genesis is where you will find that Hebrew word being referenced along with its other uses in the old testament, not Colossions. You're quoting the new testament which is written in Greek. The word is not the same there.
That being said, I don't think that God having an image to which He can be seen by in anyway contradicts that as spirit He can be invisible and omnipresent. I also don't think that just because it states He is invisible that this means He will always be invisible forever into futurity. Spirit can manifest itself to the eyes and become visible. Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible. The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.
Now in all honesty I am confused by the objection to the reference in colossions. If He will become visible at some point again then why the objection to Him having an image we can see? After all, He appeared and was seen throughout the old testament and we are told He will appear again. If not as a man, than how? Or is there no consensus here as to how He will re-appear? Do we even believe He will do that? I always thought it was clear that He would come again for all the world to see and that this was not just metaphorical speak but a real event that will occur.
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
I'll end my part by saying I do not imply that "image" has to do with spiritual or moral character. If you read it that way, understand that's not what I'm saying. Does that "disagree" with Ray? I don't think so, but I don't want to be assumed to be holding a "position" from among only two--physical or "moral".
What we are is very definitely LIKE what God is, and that's how He made us. Spirit into a Form becoming a living soul. But He's not formed out of dust, nor did the earth "bring Him forth". Instead, I believe, dust is made out of Him and He brought the earth forth (and all that is in it).
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 26, 2016, 04:36:53 PM ---I'll end my part by saying I do not imply that "image" has to do with spiritual or moral character. If you read it that way, understand that's not what I'm saying. Does that "disagree" with Ray? I don't think so, but I don't want to be assumed to be holding a "position" from among only two--physical or "moral".
What we are is very definitely LIKE what God is, and that's how He made us. Spirit into a Form becoming a living soul. But He's not formed out of dust, nor did the earth "bring Him forth". Instead, I believe, dust is made out of Him and He brought the earth forth (and all that is in it).
--- End quote ---
Thank you Dave for clarifying. I can't say I disagree.
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on September 26, 2016, 04:14:59 PM ---
Hi Kat,
I did say the 'Hebrew' form of the word 'Image' which is what ray pointed out. Genesis is where you will find that Hebrew word being referenced along with its other uses in the old testament, not Colossions. You're quoting the new testament which is written in Greek. The word is not the same there.
That being said, I don't think that God having an image to which He can be seen by in anyway contradicts that as spirit He can be invisible and omnipresent. I also don't think that just because it states He is invisible that this means He will always be invisible forever into futurity. Spirit can manifest itself to the eyes and become visible. Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible. The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.
Now in all honesty I am confused by the objection to the reference in colossions. If He will become visible at some point again then why the objection to Him having an image we can see? After all, He appeared and was seen throughout the old testament and we are told He will appear again. If not as a man, than how? Or is there no consensus here as to how He will re-appear? Do we even believe He will do that? I always thought it was clear that He would come again for all the world to see and that this was not just metaphorical speak but a real event that will occur.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
One thing that I don't see being spoken of is a distinction between Father and Son, yes there is one God, and that word God can refer to either or both. But I see no differentiation spoken here and the Scripture does make that distinction many times between Father and Son. When using just the word God it does not make what is being spoken clear enough. So that is where I see there is a gap in what is being spoken of, as there is a difference with image, man, invisible.
In the OT when Elohim is used for God, which is plural and that is speaking of the Godhead which includes Them both. And a few times We and Us is used to further show a distinction in the Godhead.
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Speaking of Christ Jesus things become much more obvious to me as He has shown Himself to have an image many times, before He was in the flesh and after His resurrection. But I certainly believe we will literally see Christ at resurrection when He returns and I think we will always know Christ as a man, even in His glorified state of being.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dennis Vogel:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this thread but a lot of it seems silly.
--- Quote ---Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible. The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.
--- End quote ---
That was the actual body Jesus used. Not a spiritual representation. And that body was and is still dead. There was no blood circulating in it, etc. But that body did not decay.
Jesus had a glory before coming to this earth as a man. He ask his Father to restore that glory. Does anyone really believe Jesus was a man before coming to this earth and is still a man inhabiting a physical body? If so, is He limited in any way by that body?
Just because spirit beings can take on the appearance of a physical man proves nothing.
--- Quote ---He IS the form/image/shape of the invisible God.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying God is a physical being? Was He physical before the universe was created and there was nothing physical? Are all the angels physical? Nonsense.
--- Quote --- In fact, Jesus was raised with a spiritual BODY.
--- End quote ---
No He was not. He used that dead body to communicate.
--- Quote ---Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Is this not a hearken back to Moses' deep desire? Is this not humanities desire? To see God? To see God as HE IS?
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.
--- End quote ---
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Are all these angels physical? Do you think the angels need a physical God to see Him?
Just because spiritual beings can recognize each other does not mean they are physical.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
Is the physical body of Christ living in us?
1Co 15:46 (Rotherham) Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
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