> General Discussions
Genesis 5:1
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on September 26, 2016, 08:40:44 PM ---Maybe I'm misunderstanding this thread but a lot of it seems silly.
--- Quote ---Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible. The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.
--- End quote ---
That was the actual body Jesus used. Not a spiritual representation. And that body was and is still dead. There was no blood circulating in it, etc. But that body did not decay.
Jesus had a glory before coming to this earth as a man. He ask his Father to restore that glory. Does anyone really believe Jesus was a man before coming to this earth and is still a man inhabiting a physical body? If so, is He limited in any way by that body?
Just because spirit beings can take on the appearance of a physical man proves nothing.
--- Quote ---He IS the form/image/shape of the invisible God.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying God is a physical being? Was He physical before the universe was created and there was nothing physical? Are all the angels physical? Nonsense.
--- Quote --- In fact, Jesus was raised with a spiritual BODY.
--- End quote ---
No He was not. He used that dead body to communicate.
--- Quote ---Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Is this not a hearken back to Moses' deep desire? Is this not humanities desire? To see God? To see God as HE IS?
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.
--- End quote ---
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Are all these angels physical? Do you think the angels need a physical God to see Him?
Just because spiritual beings can recognize each other does not mean they are physical.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
Is the physical body of Christ living in us?
1Co 15:46 (Rotherham) Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dennis,
I strongly disagree that discussions such as these are silly.
I'm assuming your questions are directed at me as you are quoting me so I will attempt to answer them.
Jesus had a glory before coming to this earth as a man. He ask his Father to restore that glory. Does anyone really believe Jesus was a man before coming to this earth and is still a man inhabiting a physical body? If so, is He limited in any way by that body?
I do believe Jesus is still a man and was so before coming here. My reasons for believing He was man before coming here are from the various descriptions of Jehovah in the old testament which describe Him as a man whether in vision (such as seen by Isaiah, Zecheriah, Daniel etc...) or interacting with the patriarchs such as wrestling Jacob, showing Moses His back, or eating with Abraham. I suppose you could object and say that Jesus is not Jehovah to which case I guess my argument becomes invalid.
Now is He still a man? Well Paul says this about Him after He is resurrected and returned to His former estate:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
John also describes Him in revelation with very Human qualities such as hair, feet, a waiste, etc...
Now you asked if that body is physical? Does he still have a body? Paul seems to think so. These statements are all made after His ressurection and glorification:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his [Jesus] glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Colossians 2:9 For in him[Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Speaking of the resurrection, bodies, the first and last adam (Jesus):
1 Corinthians 15:40-49
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the imageof the heavenly (See Phil 3:21).
Paul is speaking of bodies here and says we will bear the image of the heavenly body. He also goes on to say it is raised in glory and power as a spiritual body. He then compares adam and Jesus. One bearing the earthly natural body and the other bearing the spiritual body raised in glory and power.
So why is it ridiculous to believe He has a body? The scriptures atleast reference Him having a spiritual body. So that should also answer your question as to whether I think its physical or spiritual. Clearly its spiritual. I really on the scriptures to determine if He has a spiritual body and not the fact that He can appear as a man. Hope that helps clarify that up.
You asked:
Are you saying God is a physical being? Was He physical before the universe was created and there was nothing physical? Are all the angels physical? Nonsense.
I also tried to explain what I meant by the use of the word 'physical' with David. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words. I was not implying anything fleshy, it was merely a word chosen for a lack of better words which implied He has a form that can be seen by human eyes if He chooses to be seen. I justified this by showing that with His spiritual body He can appear and interact with others as He did after His resurrection. If you believe Jehovah is Jesus (as I do) then you can also look at the many times He literally appeared human in the old testament (like with abraham). This was spirit taking on a visible form that can be seen.
You say He used a dead body to communicate... so He was raised to life into a dead body? I'm not trying to mock but I certainly don't agree with you. I think paul layed out how the resurrection happens for us to see and He says in Philipians that our vile bodies will be transformed into the same glorious body that He now has. I sure hope that isn't a dead body.. heh.
You ask:
Are all these angels physical? Do you think the angels need a physical God to see Him?
Just because spiritual beings can recognize each other does not mean they are physical.
Right. I agree with this so you proved that angels don't have to appear in any form to see God and God doesn't have to appear in a form for them to see Him. At least that would make sense but I suppose there is no scripture which describes exactly how spiritual beings communicate. But we are not spiritual beings. We as humans are limited. We require that God appear before us to see Him in our current condition. We are also told that He will appear on that great day. Do you not believe Jesus will appear? Or perhaps you believe He will appear in His dead body?
You ask
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
Is the physical body of Christ living in us?
1Co 15:46 (Rotherham) Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
You are clearly mocking the idea that Jesus has a body but I really don't know why because the scriptures describe Him having a spiritual body after the ressurection. There may even be other scriptures I overlooked which directly address Him having a body or mentioning it but they escape me now.
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
Here are a few places Ray spoke of the resurrection and we will have new spiritual bodies.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ---------------------
"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 08). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
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And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).
Paul says in I Cor. 15 that man's "only hope" of life after death is if there is a resurrection of the dead. And Jesus is the proof that there is a resurrection of the dead--He was the First. When will the next resurrection of the dead be? Answer:
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [euphemism for death] but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor.15:51-52). "At the last trump."
Besides, we will not come up even in resurrection with the same old body that we died with. We will be given new bodies, spiritual bodies, and then only at the last trump, NOT WHEN WE DIE!
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42-44)
http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm -----------------------
Let it be known right here and now, that NO UNIVERSALISTS uses Matt. 25:46 as PROOF that God has promised the righteous "ETERNAL life." This Scripture proves no such thing regardless of how many thousands of theologians think it does. It promises "aionion [age-abiding or life of the ages] life" and NOT, "ETERNAL LIFE!" This is not a verse to proves the righteous will live FOREVER. There are OTHER VERSES that prove this. Namely those which speak of RESURRECTION, INCORRUPTION, IMMORTALITY, AND SPIRITUAL BODIES! Of COURSE, the word "NON" is "not there." The Universalists NEVER PUT IT THERE - Mr. Slick PUT IT THERE, and it doesn't belong there!
http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html ------------
Paul says in I Cor. 15 that man's "only hope" of life after death is if there is a resurrection of the dead. And Jesus is the proof that there is a resurrection of the dead--He was the First. When will the next resurrection of the dead be? Answer:
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [euphemism for death] but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor.15:51-52). "At the last trump."
Besides, we will not come up even in resurrection with the same old body that we died with. We will be given new bodies, spiritual bodies, and then only at the last trump, NOT WHEN WE DIE!
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42-44)
v
When non-ending life is meant in reference to our spiritual resurrected bodies, the Scriptures use words like: "incorruption - imperishable," "glorious," "spiritual," and "immortality" (I Cor. 15:42-44, 54). The word "immortality" (Greek, 'athanasia') means "deathlessness--immortality." It does not mean "eternal" or "everlasting." Immortality will never end and Immortals will never die. But the word itself does not mean "everlasting," or "eternal."
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----------------------
Not a quickening PHYSICAL body.
Notice that we are first made a "natural body." Adam (and all of his children—that’s US,) did not have an "immortal soul," did he? His body was a "natural" body. Only Jesus was made a "living SPIRIT." It says so right here. Can the natural man with a natural body of flesh and blood ever enter into the Kingdom of God? "…flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (Ver. 50.) Does the orthodox Christian Church teach that we will have PHYSICAL BODIES in the Kingdom of God? Yes, yes they do—but then again, none of their doctrines are from the Scriptures. "It is raised [from the dead] a SPIRITUAL BODY" (Ver. 44.)
v
It is the "resurrection of the DEAD" that is taught in Scripture. Dead PEOPLE will be resurrected, not dead BODIES. And our new resurrected bodies will be SPIRITUAL, and not physical (I Cor. 15:44.)
v
here is the clear Scriptural truth as to when our indicated point of redemption is reached and we will finally be fully "like Him," not as an earnest or down payment, but rather paid in full.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be [If not now, when? At or in death? No…]: but we know that when He shall APPEAR, we shall BE LIKE HIM: for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2.)
There is our answer.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
santgem:
Greetings!
“God is creatING man in His image”
There is always a confusion when it comes to the word ‘image’, will it be physical or spiritual? There is a tendency of miscommunication when this word pop-up.
PHYSICAL IMAGE
God is creating a man in His image, that means He is creating the humans not the heavenly bodies.(1 Co. 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another; /1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body). It is clearly supported from the two verses that God is creating man in physical appearance.
Then there is an argument; If He is creating man in His image, then God must have an image first. God does not need an image before creating an image. God can create universe without having a pattern of an image of universe, what I mean is that God is able to create everything without having a pattern or a model.
Now, for SPIRITUAL IMAGE;
(1Co 15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we [fn] bear the image of the heavenly man. / 1Co 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality). Again, after that physical image creation then it follows the spiritual image creation.
As I said again and again that God is creating man in His image in both Physical and Spiritual ways. The order is always physical then spiritual not the other way around. The verse above is stating ‘creating a man ' so it should be physical image first then spiritual image.
Now this is a catch; Example, when human is in the image of a cow(physical), does it mean that God also has an image of that of a cow(physical) before creating a cow, it doesn’t make sense. So also, if we have an image of a man it doesn’t follow that God must have an image of a man(physical) first before creating a man in His image. God can create anything without a pattern or image. God only had a physical image of a man literally when he actually became a man born by Virgin Mary, only at that time he had physical body.
My only worries is that when you say ‘The Son was created’. God cannot be created. When God is created, automatically you have two Gods. No matter how you interpolate or explain, if you say that God is created then, you have two Gods, there is only one God. Instead of saying created, is there no chance to say revealed rather that created?
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote ---I do believe Jesus is still a man and was so before coming here.
--- End quote ---
So you believe the creator of the universe is enclosed in a corrupt fleshly, physical man. Nonsense.
You believe He was a physical man before there was anything physical.
So does Jesus go to the bathroom? If Jesus lives in me, when I go to the bathroom is Jesus also going to the bathroom?
Does Jesus need to breath air? What does He eat? Can He see behind his head?
The scriptures have a lot to say about the flesh.
Kat:
Dennis, I think it's possible that The Son (not the Father) has a image, that is in the form of a man, but is not physical flesh and blood. In the OT Ezekiel had an experience and the glorious form of the Lord that he saw looked like a man, that was not physical.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
Certainly God does not 'need' or have to be in an image or form of a man, but I think He has one for our sake. When The Son did come into the flesh then He temporarily took on the physical flesh and blood aspect, so He could die. But at resurrection His physical mortal body "was changed" (Paul described it in 1 Cor 15) back into a glorious body capable of anything He wanted it to do. When the disciples saw Him He explained He was not a spirit, yet there He was like a man.
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
That is the glorious resurrected Christ, He had been changed to immortality, incorruptible, but looked like a man... He was familiar they recognized Him, but He was still glorious, capable of disappearing at will (Luke 24:31).
I do believe we will 'see' Christ for real at our resurrection, as John could see Him in the vision in Revelation, there with all His glory and yet was the appearance of a man, though certainly not a physical flesh and blood man.
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
v. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
v. 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
v. 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Even though these were visions, nonetheless they depicted Christ glorious and He was in the form of a man. I believe that The Father created The Son in the form of a man (not physical flesh and blood until He was born to Mary)... as He was the God we would know and 'see' and hear and relate to, He did it for us.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
v
Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:
"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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