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Can he come today?
cheekie3:
Dave -
Thank you for sharing this about 'Evil':
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 23, 2016, 03:34:03 PM ---Evil=H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
This is the same "evil" that is in the fruit of the tree.
There is no moral bias to the word.
Here's this verse from "concordant" versions of this verse..
Genesis 6:5
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the evil of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but evil all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only evil.
(LITV) And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long.
Try this: Just take the first five "definitions" (excluding 'evil') and read it that way.
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the bad of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but bad all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the adversity of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only adversity.
(LITV) And Jehovah saw that the affliction of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only affliction all the day long.
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the calamity of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but calamity all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the distress of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only distress.
Small wonder Noah built the ark. :) Sounds like several things it's good to be saved from, if I lived in the days of Noah. I'd want to get away from that too, especially if the thoughts of my heart were true, honest, just, lovely--in other words, GOOD--or at least I wanted them to be. Come to think of it, I DID want them to be almost nine years ago. Somehow, despite all my "sin" and "wickedness", He's been my Ark.
Of course God completely failed to wipe out sin and wickedness (the KJV and it's 'followers' choices of words) from the face of the land by drowning all those folks. According to most, that was His purpose. The ark had barely landed before Noah and crew were at it again. On to Plan C?
Or maybe I'm just being cryptic and pedantic again.
--- End quote ---
Although 'Evil' has no moral bias, the way I understand 'Evil', is by the intent of the heart of the one doing the 'Evil'.
God's intent is to do 'Good' with 'Evil' - as was the case of Joseph and his brothers who meant to do Joseph 'Evil' - but God meant it for 'Good' for Joseph's family, and many others on the land.
I believe that any man, woman or child who commit 'Evil' are guilty of 'Sin' - as only God can use 'Evil' for 'Good'.
Although 'Evil' has no moral bias, is 'Evil' not the opposite of 'Good'?
Are we not Commanded to not return 'Evil' for 'Evil', but to overcome 'Evil' by doing 'Good'?
Warmest Regards.
George
Dave in Tenn:
George, Paul said he did the "evil" even when the intent of his heart was to do the "good". Some people take that to mean Paul was some sort of moral degenerate with a multiple of sins in his life. No. They don't understand the difference between "evil" and "sin". And how can they? They don't understand what EVIL is and barely understand what SIN is. They are only able to think "theologically". If they have had "experience" of the difference, they don't even know they have had it.
I can't achieve deeper understanding until I can get basic understanding. That means, I need to know what the inspired words mean, not what certain translators thought they meant. I'm told in Scripture to search and see if "these things" be true. I do this most readily and eagerly when I hear the same verse being brought up as proof-texts for some 'belief' or doctrine.
I not only prefer to think that the "alternative" translations are better, but they also have the added benefit (besides being more "concordant" and accurate) of matching so much other scripture in the New Testament, and in my experience with the world. Ray quoted the poet in one of the videos Dennis posted recently: Most men live lives of quiet desperation. Most men do not live lives of unending wickedness and plots to commit more all day long.
Now, maybe the people of Noah's time did...but this verse does NOT say that, so I choose NOT to assume they did. However, most men do live lives of adversity, affliction, and at least periodic calamity--and all live lives of fear of the same and struggle to avoid the same in their minds and hearts. These things are on many men's minds constantly all day, every day. Why? Because they have no hope, and no faith--at least not in anything spiritually solid. They lack the fruit of the Spirit because they lack the Spirit, to whatever degree they do.
If "salvation" doesn't change this, then what good is it? Right now, "salvation" for me means having the hope and faith to "build the ark". He'll save everybody, though most will be "slaughtered" first. And if life is nothing but adversity, affliction, and periodic calamity, with constant fear, worry, and carnal amelioration of the same all the live long day, every day, without hope or faith, then what is the big deal about physically dying?
indianabob:
Hi Dave,
Well said and helpful.
Thanks for expounding those ideas once again.
Indiana bob
cheekie3:
Dave -
Thank you for this clarification; and for pointing out that there is a significant difference between 'Sin' and 'Evil':
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 24, 2016, 05:43:00 PM ---George, Paul said he did the "evil" even when the intent of his heart was to do the "good". Some people take that to mean Paul was some sort of moral degenerate with a multiple of sins in his life. No. They don't understand the difference between "evil" and "sin". And how can they? They don't understand what EVIL is and barely understand what SIN is. They are only able to think "theologically". If they have had "experience" of the difference, they don't even know they have had it.
I can't achieve deeper understanding until I can get basic understanding. That means, I need to know what the inspired words mean, not what certain translators thought they meant. I'm told in Scripture to search and see if "these things" be true. I do this most readily and eagerly when I hear the same verse being brought up as proof-texts for some 'belief' or doctrine.
I not only prefer to think that the "alternative" translations are better, but they also have the added benefit (besides being more "concordant" and accurate) of matching so much other scripture in the New Testament, and in my experience with the world. Ray quoted the poet in one of the videos Dennis posted recently: Most men live lives of quiet desperation. Most men do not live lives of unending wickedness and plots to commit more all day long.
Now, maybe the people of Noah's time did...but this verse does NOT say that, so I choose NOT to assume they did. However, most men do live lives of adversity, affliction, and at least periodic calamity--and all live lives of fear of the same and struggle to avoid the same in their minds and hearts. These things are on many men's minds constantly all day, every day. Why? Because they have no hope, and no faith--at least not in anything spiritually solid. They lack the fruit of the Spirit because they lack the Spirit, to whatever degree they do.
If "salvation" doesn't change this, then what good is it? Right now, "salvation" for me means having the hope and faith to "build the ark". He'll save everybody, though most will be "slaughtered" first. And if life is nothing but adversity, affliction, and periodic calamity, with constant fear, worry, and carnal amelioration of the same all the live long day, every day, without hope or faith, then what is the big deal about physically dying?
--- End quote ---
Unfortunately, this does not help my understanding; and I very much would like to know, so I can improve my understanding.
If I understand you correctly, it appears that you are saying that Paul proved that 'Evil' in itself is not 'Sin' - yet I understand that without 'Evil' there can be no 'Sin'.
I understand that Paul was referencing the 'Law of Sin and Death' in his body, which is rooted in 'not doing Right'.
Perhaps I have misunderstood the whole thing about the single 'Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil' - in that, 'Evil' in itself is not the opposite of 'doing Good'?
When I have suffered 'Evil' through no fault of my own, was I suffering 'Sin'?
When Ray taught us that in order to appreciate 'Good' we must experience 'Evil' - was that not a comparison of opposites?
Does 'Salvation' not free us from 'Sin and Death'?
Did Jesus Himself not suffer 'Evil' at the hands of Jews, yet did not 'Sin' (against God)?
Did not Joseph's brothers do 'Evil' against him (and therefore 'Sinned' against God's Law); which God Himself used for 'Good'?
When anyone of us commits 'Sin' - is that not something that we are accountable to God Himself; and only God Himself (as 'Sin' is not against other people, but against God's Law)?
When we do anything that is not 'Right' to other Men, women and children - are we not doing them 'Evil' (and not doing them 'Sin'); and does not God count this as 'Sin' (against His Law)?
Are His Elect in this Age of Grace not being 'Judged (Chastised)' by Him, in order to get to the point whereby His Elect will always choose to do 'Good' rather than to do 'Evil' - to be like Him - and is that not why His Elect are to 'Have The Mind of Christ' who did not 'Sin' - and did 'Good' and not 'Evil'?
Perhaps if you provided your preferred definitions of both 'Evil' and 'Sin' this would assist me in understanding if we are in agreement, or if I am in error.
Kind Regards.
George
Brenda:
My personal view is that ALL THE ELECT in Christ (that have not fallen away yet) must Fall away first before JESUS returns to Earth. I found this from Kat's previous posts .... Here then is what must be accomplished in your life before you die:
“Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: THAT the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU [IN YOU], and YE IN HIM, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" (II Thes. 1:11-12)!!
How then does our Apostle Paul tell us this MUST be accomplished? What must happen? What must we do? Or rather what must Jesus do IN US? Here is the Scriptural answer:
"Now we beseech YOU, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST [The Day of the Lord] is at hand [FOR YOU...].
Let no man deceive YOU by any means: for that day shall not come [TO YOU…] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST [BY YOU…], and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition [IN YOU…TO YOU…]; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped [IN YOU…]; so that he as God sits in the temple of God [‘which temple YE ARE’ II Cor. 6:16] showing himself that HE IS [YOU ARE/I AM] a god.
Remember ye not, that when I was yet with YOU, I told YOU these things?
And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he [‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL, COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."
Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.
"For the mystery [secret, hidden truth] of iniquity [lawlessness] does already work [‘is inwardly working’ The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J. B. Rotherham)]: only he who now let’s will let [‘only he who restrains will do so’], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed IN [IN YOU] and TO YOU, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming; even him [not original], whose coming [the man of sin called son of perdition IN YOU] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:1-9).
The Day of the Lord is not fulfilled until the end of this age [Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21].
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