> General Discussions
John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 14, 2017, 05:00:42 PM ---
So are you saying they are one...
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote ---...and the same?
--- End quote ---
No. No more than your spirit and you are the same.
--- Quote ---Jesus does not have a mind of his own? Yes or no please.
--- End quote ---
I don't know what this question/statement means.
John from Kentucky:
The Scriptures teach only One God.
The Many believe in their false doctrine of the Trinity, three God's.
Many here on the Forum believe in the equally false doctrine of two Gods, a Father God and a Jesus God.
But there is only One God. One mind, One personality, One God. As Jesus said, "I and the Father are One."
But as Paul taught, there are different aspects and functions of this One God. God can chew gum and skip rope at the same time.
One function of God is the Father, "out of whom are all things." Another function of God is the Son, "by whom our all things." One God, different aspects or functions. But as Paul said, "Not many know this."
Which is why Elohim is a plural noun, but the OT uses as applicable to a single entity.
I briefly talked to Ray about this when I noticed he was coming to a different understanding of God's being at the end. I said many on the Forum will have a hard time with understanding this. He told me we must follow where the Spirit leads.
Only God's Spirit can bring true understanding of the True God. I am not sure if God wants this Truth to come out here and now, or will Jesus wait until the next age to teach this to His Elect?
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Musterseed on October 14, 2017, 04:57:30 PM ---Was BT down this morning? Wouldn't come up for hours. Any way I would like to address Dave about the statement I made about (Can two individuals be one God? yes)
These are Ray's exact words he used when discussing The Father and Son being one God. I was
directing the forum to the video Inherit the Kingdom. Did anyone watch it to verify the use of the word individuals? IN Christ... Pamela
--- End quote ---
Yes, it was down this morning. Here's the link to that Video. http://youtu.be/QhGbw_cgweQ
In it, after declaring from Scripture that Jesus most definitely is God, Ray said at about the 12 minute mark. "One person? No. One God? Yes....Can two individuals be one individual? No. Can two individuals be one God? Yes." That's the quote. Listen to what immediately precedes and follows and make of it what you will.
Just as Ray wished in one of the last home studies that we could get away from the word "God", I wish we (and I believe he as well) could get away from words like "individual". He did make the point that only Jesus (as a man) could properly be called a "person". The Trinitarians have One God in three "persons". The Unitarians have God as one "person (or a synonym)", though that person (or synonym) is not Jesus Christ. But it seems we're stuck with it.
Of what use is it? Persons=individuals=beings=entities. It's all the same. Might as well say Dudes or Fellers. Get to talking about "aspects" or "expressions" or some other more abstract term, and it begins to make more sense how One God could be two--even how two God's could be One. It's even possible to understand that "individual" might mean (more metaphorically) an aspect or an expression. Maybe that's even what Ray was driving toward, and not a sentence to be cut out of the whole with an "!" after it. I don't know...I just suspect.
None of those terms are "scripture", however,--and not just Dudes and Fellers. They're just useful (if at all) to express what is meant by Father and Son. I think I will stick to "Father" and "Son", and let the chips fall. If "I" am nothing like "Them", then I care no more about it than how many Philistines Samson killed. I'm just a piece of meat with a brain.
I've been silent on this issue since we decided to limit discussion on it (a decision I supported and still do, for my own reasons). I can go back to my cave, but I cannot "un-think" what Ray himself led me to, or confirmed in me, bit by bit by bit.
Dennis Vogel:
Just tell me what word you prefer in place of individual and I'll use it Dave.
The forum was down last night for server software upgrades but it took longer than expected.
Dennis Vogel:
I do not doubt that Jesus has God's spirit. But was it to the extent that the two of them were and still are identical? Are they one-and-the-same being as some suggest?
This goes back to my question; Does Jesus have a mind of His own?
Ray has said more than once that God is not 'a' spirit ... God 'is' spirit.
But if God the Father and Jesus are one-and-the-same, why even use Jesus as an intermediary when you are talking directly to God in the first place? But it makes sense if God created a Son to be the intermediary.
An intermediary by definition passes on information as a link between two individuals. Words have meaning.
And it is Jesus that judges the world. Why even use Jesus when there is no difference? But it makes sense if God created a Son to do the judging, just as we were created to be the judged. Jesus is our elder brother.
And if they are one-and-the-same how can Jesus really be a Son? This destroys the Father/Son relationship.
Jesus says "our Father" in the so called 'Lord's Prayer.' The word 'our' means yours and mine. The Son cannot also be His own Father and vice versa.
And if He is the firstborn of what we will be like, does that mean we will also be one-and-the-same as God the Father? Will we become as God?
Dave said "He IS unapproachable" but Jesus is the intermediary and approachable. Doesn't that make the point that they are not one-and-the-same?
Will all of us become exact clones of God the Father? Else why put 50 billion different people through good and evil?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Dozens of times God the Father and Jesus are referred to as being different individuals. The Son cannot be His own Father and vice versa.
I'll reply to JFK's post in detail tomorrow.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version