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Author Topic: First People  (Read 2625 times)

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Horan

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Re: First People
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2018, 06:18:59 PM »

The way I see it, Adam was a walking talking individual that had a beating heart, and Adam lived 930 years and he died.
 Humanity, mankind, the family of Adam and Eve created in the image of God, can also be called Adam.
1st Corinthians 15:45 KJV - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1st Corinthians 15:45 Amplified - Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being-an individual personality; the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit-restoring the dead to life.
Jacob had 12 sons that made up the 12 tribes know as Israel as a whole, but each tribe was called after their fathers house, from Reuben on down, and it was very common for a son that was looking for a wife to obtain one from his fathers family. Jacob/Israel was a walking talking individual that went into Egypt, but only the children of his 12 sons came out of Egypt about 400 years later.
Numbers 26:51- These were the numbered of the children of ISRAEAL, six hundred thousand and a thousand seven hundred and thirty.

I'm not sure what you might not be saying in this, but I find what you have said fully embraceable. I take the creation story at face value. No doubt it's symbolic, but is it only that? I can see that there is much interest here in reading science into scripture. I wouldn't do that, preferring to let science be what it is, with its faults and virtues, and let scripture stand on its own. I wan't there at the beginning, so I can't claim that the events described happened exactly as they're presented, but neither was I present at our Lord's resurrection, and the world thinks that taking either or both of these things at face value is foolishness, depending on science for its indictment. Many things in scripture are presented symbolically, and there is as much metaphor, figure of speech and idiomatic expression that one finds in expression rendered in any language. But the creation story isn't presented like this, but rather as historical narrative, much as the story of Calvary is presented, not as simply a poem filled with spiritual truth. We're smart people, but I would caution against being too clever.
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Horan

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Re: First People
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2018, 06:27:45 PM »

Greetings

Act 17:25  Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26  And hath  made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


It is very clear that God made all nations with one blood running thru all men. Think about it folks.  If God had created one race of people that hunted only and than Adam and Eve to till the ground, than Eve could not have been the mother of all the living and the Scripture cannot be broken.  Adam the first man thru whom all have sinned, Jesus the second Adam thru whom all are justified.  Both account of the creation of man is, they were created in “his image”.  You have to ask yourself why would God create a man and a woman twice? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The first creation could not have been accounted for sinning since without the law there is no sin.  Adam and Eve sin because they had the law.  But its said "all have sinned".

The creation of two races of mankind has been used to promoted the theology of enslavement.   From Ballentine's Law Dictionary, 1948 Edition. 'Human Being' is defined as follows: 'See monster' . From the same dictionary, 'monster' is defined: 'A human-being by birth, but in some part resembling a lower animal.'

Therefore they conscribe  human beings have no inheritable right so cannot own land, property.  Legally speaking that would include all of you and I. This is the way it works in Satan's world. Adam of the mankind family was “formed” the other creatures were created.  So if you are not of the right blood line you cannot be part of the Kingdom according to those of such persuasion. If we deviate from biblical principle we end up with dogmatic presumption and divisions. 

Sea Of Glass

There ought to be a way on here to just like something. Thanks for this. I think it's very helpful to do as you have done. If something is presented as truth, certainly examine it as a candidate for such distinction in light of the text, but also examine what other purpose it might serve if we might too casually accept it. I think the world at large can be very instructive in this way, with regard to distinguishing truth from error.
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Wanda

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Re: First People
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2018, 08:42:48 PM »

Wanda, I think a translation earlier on in the thread was shown. It said  Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Rotherham has an interesting translaton:

(Rotherham)  So the man called the name of his wife, Eve,—in that, she, was made mother of every one living.
Sandie

Very interesting translation, thanks Sandie.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
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Chris

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Re: First People
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2018, 09:06:11 PM »

Well, I would say Adam and Eve were not the first people since Adam had undoubtedly a father and a mother, unless God lies (absolutly not!), for Adam had to leave them to marry Eve:
Genesis 2:24 «  That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh »

All that Adam said was; "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, for she was taken out of Man." (Genesis 2:23) The passage you quoted that immediately follows this statement from Adam is part of the narrative that Moses is writing for OUR admonition
(1 Corinthians 10:11)

Genesis 2:24 is not Adam speaking, it's a commentary insert from Moses' perspective

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« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:30:00 PM by Chris »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: First People
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2018, 09:24:50 PM »

Horan, all I can tell you is that I do not (cannot) read (especially) the 2nd chapter of Genesis as History.  To me, there is a clear difference between the way the Gospels (and all the NT) "read" and nearly all of the Old Testament, and I don't think that's because of the differences in the original languages, though it might be.

I "am" where I am on this matter, and sense great rest being "here".   For all I know, I'm confessing my sins.  So be it.  I don't mean to disturb anybody else's rest, but sometimes I am less than sure that what they are experiencing really IS rest.  I've never preached what I "believe" on this subject to anybody with the intent of winning converts.  In fact, I've never preached the "complete" version to anyone, ever.  I'm just saving a spot in the Higher Assembly for such as me.  I want them to know its OK.  Thousands have tried to preach to me all my life.  First the church, then the world.  Everybody is going to answer, including me.     

Beyond that, scripture itself doesn't require me to believe that Samson slew exactly 1000 philistines with the literal jaw-bone of a literal a@@.  It does require me to believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus.  And I do.  When I left the church and went into the world with a passion, only He "remained" of my ever-dimming faith until He himself was almost extinguished.  He is Lord, and no bible character old or new is more important than Him.  Since Jesus, I don't care any more about Samson, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Job, or David.  He is Lord of the living. 

 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:59:47 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

indianabob

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Re: First People
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2018, 09:32:05 PM »

Hi Chris
Please consider this and similar passages. Even Moses was inspired by God to teach what he taught.



2 Tim 3…15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

Please consider this and similar passages.




Well, I would say Adam and Eve were not the first people since Adam had undoubtedly a father and a mother, unless God lies (absolutly not!), for Adam had to leave them to marry Eve:
Genesis 2:24 «  That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh »

All that Adam said was; "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, for she was taken out of Man." (Genesis 2:23) The passage you quoted that immediately follows this statement from Adam is part of the narrative that Moses is writing for OUR admonition (1 Corinthians 10:11)

Genesis 2:24 is not Adam speaking, it's a commentary insert from Moses' perspective

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Chris

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Re: First People
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2018, 10:08:44 PM »

Hi Chris
Please consider this and similar passages. Even Moses was inspired by God to teach what he taught.



2 Tim 3…15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

Please consider this and similar passages.

I never said Moses was not inspired, he most certainly was, he wrote the first 5 books of scripture. The post that I was replying to made the claim that Adam was the one being quoted in Genesis 2:24 and that Adam knew his physical mother and father. I was simply pointing out that is not the case because Adam was not speaking in Genesis 2:24, it was from a God-inspired Moses.

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John from Kentucky

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Re: First People
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2018, 11:27:43 PM »

Horan, all I can tell you is that I do not (cannot) read (especially) the 2nd chapter of Genesis as History.  To me, there is a clear difference between the way the Gospels (and all the NT) "read" and nearly all of the Old Testament, and I don't think that's because of the differences in the original languages, though it might be.

I "am" where I am on this matter, and sense great rest being "here".   For all I know, I'm confessing my sins.  So be it.  I don't mean to disturb anybody else's rest, but sometimes I am less than sure that what they are experiencing really IS rest.  I've never preached what I "believe" on this subject to anybody with the intent of winning converts.  In fact, I've never preached the "complete" version to anyone, ever.  I'm just saving a spot in the Higher Assembly for such as me.  I want them to know its OK.  Thousands have tried to preach to me all my life.  First the church, then the world.  Everybody is going to answer, including me.     

Beyond that, scripture itself doesn't require me to believe that Samson slew exactly 1000 philistines with the literal jaw-bone of a literal a@@.  It does require me to believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus.  And I do.  When I left the church and went into the world with a passion, only He "remained" of my ever-dimming faith until He himself was almost extinguished.  He is Lord, and no bible character old or new is more important than Him.  Since Jesus, I don't care any more about Samson, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Job, or David.  He is Lord of the living.

Right on, Right on, Right on.  I agree Dave.

Jesus said John the Baptist was greater than all who came before, but the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than the Baptist.

Grace and Truth came by Jesus.

No one was saved before Jesus.

Paul taught us that Jesus was the Seed, not Isaac, and by Jesus all will be saved.

The Elect of Jesus are greater than and will be saved before the great ones of the Old Testament.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Adhere to Jesus the Anointed of God and our Great King and Savior.
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Horan

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Re: First People
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2018, 03:44:52 AM »

Horan, all I can tell you is that I do not (cannot) read (especially) the 2nd chapter of Genesis as History.  To me, there is a clear difference between the way the Gospels (and all the NT) "read" and nearly all of the Old Testament, and I don't think that's because of the differences in the original languages, though it might be.

I "am" where I am on this matter, and sense great rest being "here".   For all I know, I'm confessing my sins.  So be it.  I don't mean to disturb anybody else's rest, but sometimes I am less than sure that what they are experiencing really IS rest.  I've never preached what I "believe" on this subject to anybody with the intent of winning converts.  In fact, I've never preached the "complete" version to anyone, ever.  I'm just saving a spot in the Higher Assembly for such as me.  I want them to know its OK.  Thousands have tried to preach to me all my life.  First the church, then the world.  Everybody is going to answer, including me.     

Beyond that, scripture itself doesn't require me to believe that Samson slew exactly 1000 philistines with the literal jaw-bone of a literal a@@.  It does require me to believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus.  And I do.  When I left the church and went into the world with a passion, only He "remained" of my ever-dimming faith until He himself was almost extinguished.  He is Lord, and no bible character old or new is more important than Him.  Since Jesus, I don't care any more about Samson, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Job, or David.  He is Lord of the living.

Dave, since you've addressed me personally I'll respond in kind. I don't know what I said specifically that prompted this. This is a discussion board and I've engaged in discussion. I've not told you what to think or believe. I think you have every right to not care about Samson, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Job or David. So I'm forewarned to not discuss any of these things with you.
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Prune Soleiado

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Re: First People
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2018, 05:22:28 AM »

Hello Chris, hello brothers and sisters,

Woahh! What an inspiring thread, it brings so much to say to all of us!
Wonderful!

Chris, I never said Adam told anything about the fact he had to leave his mother and father, for you’re totally right: he actually only spoke as we can read it about Eve as bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh.

Now may I insist on one thing: ALL IS ONE, one Spirit and only one inspires us, God’s children, whether it inspires Moses or Adam or Paul or Timothe or... us.
Jesus reminds us that all He does or says comes from God Our Father.

The bible is ONE BIG PARABLE. Of course historical events came out of it but it was for our admonition as Paul said. It is still a parable we, as God’s children, oughta understand, not a mystery: everything in it shows us what we have to endure as God’s elect.
Adam giving names to animals is part of it: we must learn to recognize the beasts in us and around us, name it and then reject it as external to us, for we are not part of this world inhabited by animals, whatever they are, whatever they look like. So that we should be able to recognize plainly who is part of Christ’s body, who is a real help for us, bones of our bone and flesh of our flesh.

Eve is the mother (the starting point) of the few (the real church not the synagogue of Satan) which God has gave aionios life, those few are parts of Christ’s body.
His bones and flesh. For our body is the temple of God.

Now I maintain the fact that Adam and Eve were NOT the first people and that they had earthly mothers and fathers (genealogically and spiritually) they had to LEAVE OUT to become part of Christ’s body.
Matthew 10:35 « For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law ».
Luke 9:59-60 « He said to another man, "Follow me." But he replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father. Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of GOD »
Revelation 18:4 « Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues »

We must leave out our own beliefs, what we thought we came from and what we thought made us, for it is God in Christ in us that is forming us from now on, we are becoming part of a new family, but we must have recognize the old one and then reject it to turn ourself as part of a totally new family, because « new wine must be poured into new wineskins » (Luke 5:38).

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: First People
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2018, 11:44:31 AM »

Yes, Horan, this is a discussion board.  Your post did not specifically prompt me to post, though it did give me opportunity to share that other views are possible.   

You said. "...But the creation story isn't presented like this, but rather as historical narrative, much as the story of Calvary is presented, not as simply a poem filled with spiritual truth."  I just want people to know that they can believe in an Historic Jesus who died and was raised from the dead without believing that the Second chapter of Genesis is historically factual.  That the "story of Calvary" has exceedingly more historical evidence.  And maybe it is even way more important.   

Look above at the email exchange Zeke Sr. posted.  But for the grace of God, that could have been me being talked about.  So I'm a wee bit passionate about this, but I didn't mean to come across as bowling you over.  Sorry.

I know of some ultra-literalists who make YEC proponents look like flaming liberals.  We all find our place.
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ZekeSr

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Re: First People
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2018, 03:21:28 PM »

When I started this post, I never thought it would develop into the structure that it has or continue on for this lengthy a stretch. And despite a few somewhat slightly “testy” moments, it’s been quite interesting and informative. After reading and considering all these posts, as well as doing quite a bit of prayer, contemplation, and of course some research inside and out of Scripture, I thought I’d interject the elements that have come into the light from my perspective:

First of all, Adam and Eve were absolutely not the first humans to walk the face of the earth. Of that, I am now certain.
Were they real? Were they an allegory? A metaphor? Is the whole account “just” another a parable? Well someone had to breed children and flesh out the lineage leading to our Lord and Savior. And that genealogy, in my opinion, is laid out in too much detail to be a pure parable. And, obviously, there had to be a first man and woman somewhere along the line. With that being said, like so many other dualities contained in Scripture, Adam, while genealogically correct, could still be considered “humanity,” according to his name, whereas the more direct line leading to Jesus could begin with Seth whose name means Anointed.
But now I see a more symbolic lesson in who or what Adam and Eve really are—a deep spiritual lesson—a parable. Adam and Eve are types. They are the human paradigm of God and the Word. The first example of what human relationships and family really represent:
   
Who was Jesus before he was a man? He was the Word:

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14  And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Before the Word became flesh, the Word was God’s Helper (Helpmate?) through whom all things came into being. And where did Jesus say He originally came from?

Joh 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28  I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
Joh_10:30  I and the Father are One!

And where did Eve come from? Eve came out from Adam:

Gen 2:18  And Jehovah God said, It is not good, the man being alone. (Was it good for God to be alone? Apparently not.) I will make a helper suited to him.
Gen 2:22  And Jehovah God formed the rib which He had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.
Gen 2:23  And the man said, This now at last is bone from my bones, and flesh from my flesh. For this shall be called Woman, because this has been taken out of man.

I’m going to use gender here; and that may seem strange to some, but I see no other proper way to describe it. Spiritual aspects can only be expressed by humans in human terms.
Eve’s name means “mother” …and as Prune pointed out… it also means “starting point.”
Adam and Eve are a parable based in spiritual truth with what I believe to be some historical facts sprinkled in. And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.

Gen_3:20  And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she became the mother of all living.

And the Word, divested of glory, became flesh and dwelt among us as Jesus, the Son of god.

Php 2:5  For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6  who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Php 2:8  and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
Php 2:9  Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
Php 2:10  that at the name of Jesus "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth,
Php 2:11  and "every tongue should confess" that Jesus Christ is "Lord," to the glory of God the Father.

Mike

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Wanda

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Re: First People
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2018, 04:34:33 PM »

Much thanks Mike!

This thread has been very benifical to me, as I'm sure it will be to others reading it along the way.

My understanding is much the same, and this point you made...Is quite interesting.

And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 04:55:25 PM by Wanda »
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seaofglass

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Re: First People
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2018, 07:23:02 PM »

Thought i relent from posting it troubles me with all the truth God revealed thru Ray are you all so quick to not see.

Was there more than one first man??  Why can't you all believe what the bible says.  My mother had 10 children in 13 years!!  And if you reasonably take the time to study how many Eve could of had, especially being in the tremendous health she was, i can only imagine.  There is 1,600 years packed into 10 biblical pages so of course you will not have every detail outlined, like what time frame Cain killed able.

Nevertheless you have to contend with the below Scripture and if you don't believe there was only one first man name Adam then you don't believe in the word of God.  I show you a scripture when it said Adam was the first man, yet how many of you will believe what it said? Where is the scripture Adam was not the first man?   Personal interjection are not justified.

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 

Sea Of Glass
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ZekeSr

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Re: First People
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2018, 07:52:10 PM »

Thought i relent from posting it troubles me with all the truth God revealed thru Ray are you all so quick to not see.

Was there more than one first man??  Why can't you all believe what the bible says.  My mother had 10 children in 13 years!!  And if you reasonably take the time to study how many Eve could of had, especially being in the tremendous health she was, i can only imagine.  There is 1,600 years packed into 10 biblical pages so of course you will not have every detail outlined, like what time frame Cain killed able.

Nevertheless you have to contend with the below Scripture and if you don't believe there was only one first man name Adam then you don't believe in the word of God.  I show you a scripture when it said Adam was the first man, yet how many of you will believe what it said? Where is the scripture Adam was not the first man?   Personal interjection are not justified.

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Sea Of Glass

Sea of Glass,

I never said there was more than one first man. Apparently you did not read what I wrote very closely. I said just the opposite. Also, I said there's a parable involved. And if you believe God revealed truths through Ray, I suggest you back up and read the post of Ray's Email that I put up on this thread in which he states that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. Something easily ascertained based on Scripture.

Mike
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Wanda

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Re: First People
« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2018, 09:49:59 PM »

Seaofglass,

You said... Was there more than one first man??  Why can't you all believe what the bible says.

I know I did not agree to any such nonsense.

You also said... I show you a scripture when it said Adam was the first man, yet how many of you will believe what it said? Where is the scripture Adam was not the first man?   

I'll quote Dave from Tennessee.

" Was Jesus literally and physically the "last man"?  If we don't have a problem with this answer, perhaps it will help not have a problem with "Adam" being literally and physically the "First man", though "so it is written".

And this... There is 1,600 years packed into 10 biblical pages so of course you will not have every detail outlined, like what time frame Cain killed able.

Exactly!

There are many details missing in this account and  there is a deeper spiritual message contained in it, that others have posted. 

.There can be no doubt there was a first man, and in the Genisis account it was Adam. I'm not settled on much past this, because I don't see the Genisis creation the way Ray did. 






« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 07:02:15 AM by Wanda »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: First People
« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2018, 10:43:51 PM »

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I read all the words, and I believe that passage.  It is most certainly written. 
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indianabob

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Re: First People
« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2018, 02:01:09 AM »

Thanks Dave, very inspiring,

Also consider the rest of the story explaining what is so different about humanity.

We all are to become like our elder brother the Lord Jesus and take the form of the Celestial when our change comes.
Then we will see our lord AS HE IS, for we shall be like him.


1 Cor 15:46 CLV
 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." 48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials." 49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
50 Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." 51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, 52 in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality.

1 JN 3 CLV(i) 1 Perceive what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God! And we are! Therefore the world does not know us, for it did not know Him." 2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: First People
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2018, 03:43:30 AM »

To add to Bob's comments and scripture, the Adam in my bible left the garden in a higher spiritual condition than he entered it.  There is no "fall of man" and no "fallen humanity", though men do fall.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Prune Soleiado

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Re: First People
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2018, 08:24:51 AM »

To add to Bob's comments and scripture, the Adam in my bible left the garden in a higher spiritual condition than he entered it.  There is no "fall of man" and no "fallen humanity", though men do fall.   

Amen! 😁
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