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Author Topic: Literally and Physically True?  (Read 2420 times)

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lareli

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Literally and Physically True?
« on: August 13, 2018, 03:58:00 PM »

I have a question about a quote that was on here.. 

”scripture itself doesn't require me to believe that Samson slew exactly 1000 philistines with the literal jaw-bone of a literal a@@.  It does require me to believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus.  “

My question is; does scripture requires me to believe that anything written in the Bible is literal? More specifically does scripture require me to believe in the literal/physical death burial resurrection of Christ?

Is the death burial resurrection of Christ the only thing that scripture requires me to believe as literally and physically true?
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2018, 04:56:56 PM »

I don't think the word "require" is always the clearest term. It implies you can use your own will to believe something.

If God shows it to you then it will be written in your heart and there is nothing required of you to understand.

But you could say a requirement of belonging or not belonging to a congregation is an understanding and belief of certain subjects. E.g., believing Mohammed is greater than Jesus would exclude you from this forum.

Luk 8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

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Is the death burial resurrection of Christ the only thing that scripture requires me to believe as literally and physically true?

This is just one of many things that will be added to what you believe on your journey. But this one belief does not prove anything other than you could be one of the 'called'. Time will tell if any of us are 'chosen'.

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

But this is splitting hairs IMO. I think most here understand the implication when someone says 'requires'.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 10:54:25 PM »

Heb 11:6  ...and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.

Without strife over the word "requires", this certainly is an axiomatic statement.  Yet it doesn't stand alone.  To my mind, this goes well with it:

Act 17:22  And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
Act 17:23  for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God--unknown; whom, therefore--not knowing--ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
Act 17:24  `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
Act 17:25  neither by the hands of men is He served--needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26  He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
Act 17:27  to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, --though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28  for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
Act 17:29  `Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
Act 17:30  the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
Act 17:31  because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

Act 17:32  And having heard of a rising again of the dead, some, indeed, were mocking, but others said, `We will hear thee again concerning this;'
Act 17:33  and so Paul went forth from the midst of them,
Act 17:34  and certain men having cleaved to him, did believe, among whom is also Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman, by name Damaris, and others with them.

I think Paul here presented the "things" one must believe.  If these "things" are not true, then Paul's faith (and mine) is for nothing.  If one thinks the story of Samson might be exaggeration, or hyperbole, or symbolic, or even mythological...and that the jawbone of an a@@ might be the name of a fashioned weapon rather than the partial skeleton of a donkey, so what?  If, however, Jesus did not rise from the dead...eat, drink, and be merry (if you can manage it). 

That said, it still isn't faith which saves.  Certainly not faith alone.  All the men of faith listed in Hebrews died without the promise, though they all had faith.  We're saved by grace...and grace came by Jesus Christ.  Believe it or don't.     

   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 03:46:22 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lareli

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2018, 04:17:12 PM »

I believe it’s all (the scriptures) true. Spiritually and Psychologically. Literally? I don’t know. I don’t know if it matters.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2018, 05:10:37 PM »

I believe it’s all (the scriptures) true. Spiritually and Psychologically. Literally? I don’t know. I don’t know if it matters.

As Ray likes to say about "Literal"

Mat 18:8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 01:44:27 AM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Wanda

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 02:44:39 AM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.

Right you are Dave. I am counting on literally  being resurrected,  just as literally as Jesus was.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:57:34 AM by Wanda »
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lareli

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »

Ahhh.. good comments.

But what about ‘physically’ being resurrected? My understanding is that we won’t have ‘physical’ bodies post resurrection. But I’ve always understood that Christ’s resurrected body was ‘physical’. Doubting Thomas physically touched Him. So will we in fact, like Christ, be resurrected to physical bodies? Will the coming kingdom, in fact, be physical?

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 12:35:38 PM »

Ahhh.. good comments.

But what about ‘physically’ being resurrected? My understanding is that we won’t have ‘physical’ bodies post resurrection. But I’ve always understood that Christ’s resurrected body was ‘physical’. Doubting Thomas physically touched Him. So will we in fact, like Christ, be resurrected to physical bodies? Will the coming kingdom, in fact, be physical?

We've been thru this before and you've been around long enough to know it.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The flesh of Jesus that Thomas touched was still lower than the angels and angels are not flesh and blood. That fleshly body was dead, but it did not see corruption.

Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

"The flesh profiteth nothing"

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.  

 

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 01:51:48 PM »

Read the accounts of Jesus after His Resurrection.  If He is first among many brethren, that's the "model" for those in Him at resurrection, as far as I'm concerned.  Both those who sleep and those who are alive at His coming will be changed.

Read the account of His ascension.  As far as I'm concerned, that's the model in fulfillment of "God being all in all".  I don't think the apostles just made this stuff up.  He is first.

Where the world at large fits in, I don't know.  I just believe in the "order" that Jesus laid out.     
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rene

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2018, 02:54:20 PM »

Ahhh.. good comments.

But what about ‘physically’ being resurrected? My understanding is that we won’t have ‘physical’ bodies post resurrection. But I’ve always understood that Christ’s resurrected body was ‘physical’. Doubting Thomas physically touched Him. So will we in fact, like Christ, be resurrected to physical bodies? Will the coming kingdom, in fact, be physical?

Here is the link to a paper Ray wrote entitled PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS? 
The resurrection of God's Elect is also discussed in this paper.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,7474.0.html

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lareli

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2018, 03:11:58 PM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.

When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2018, 12:19:20 PM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.

When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.

When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

ML

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2018, 07:31:59 PM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.

When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.

When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.
Well, the dead know nothing, and death is our enemy, so no need to lament on this anymore.

Then, the Resurrection happens within a blink of an eye, or even faster than that, at you won't even know how much time had passed.
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John 1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2018, 11:59:22 PM »

No comment on whether or not death is our enemy.  Doesn't scripture say it's HIS enemy?

How's that?  Even His "enemies" are His.  Jesus is Lord. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

ML

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2018, 12:17:58 AM »

Well, as He is, so are we! 😁
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John 1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Musterseed

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2018, 12:18:27 AM »

Hallelujah, Our Lord Reigns
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lareli

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2018, 10:52:18 AM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.

When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.

When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.

Incapable of sin too.. why do we need to be saved from death then? What are we being saved from? We won’t be suffering.. we won’t be anything.. can we say that we will even exist when we’re dead? How can something that doesn’t even exist be saved?
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Wanda

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2018, 10:36:32 PM »

My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts.  But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.

When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.

When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.

Incapable of sin too.. why do we need to be saved from death then? What are we being saved from? We won’t be suffering.. we won’t be anything.. can we say that we will even exist when we’re dead? How can something that doesn’t even exist be saved?

I'll let paul speak.

1 Corinthians 15:12-31

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied

. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

And no matter wheater we believe or not,  its God's will that we die, are truely dead, and are litterally raised alive again.

Jeses said...

John 6:38 King James Version (KJV)

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jeremiah 29:11

11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

His will can never be stopped.

Isaiah 14:27 New International Version (NIV)

27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed,and who can thwart him?
    His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

Job 42:2 New International Version (NIV)

2 “I know that you can do all things;
    no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

This can be believed ot not but it can't be stopped.

 



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Wanda

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Re: Literally and Physically True?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2018, 12:06:47 AM »

Even though I'm perplexed by your questions I decided to take a stab at them.

Quote
Incapable of sin too.. why do we need to be saved from death then?

Can you raise yourself? Can you rid yourself of sin? Even those who were resurrected by Jesus still were with sin and had to die again. because the wages of sin are death. They will be raised again,  to be transformed into new and glories bodies where the power of death holds no power. This is when God's creation of man is complete.

 
Quote
What are we being saved from?

The state of death itself, so we can continue our lives in the way God purposed from the beginning of creation. Death is just one step in the process of life, it is not in Gods plan or will that we continue on in the state.of nothingness.

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We won’t be suffering.. we won’t be anything.

All that we are now, will go back to the one who gives life,  for safe keeping until we are raised to continue our lives.

You will be in God's memory, wheather you choose to believe it or not.

This is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).




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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12
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