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[John from Kentucky]

God is responsible for all things.

But God does not Himself do evil.  It is offensive to Him.  That is why He created Satan.  Satan's purpose is to actually do the evil actions.

God does not kill people with tornados.  They are not acts of God.  God does not rape and kill children.  Satan does.

Several who are unlearned in the ways of God, when they learn God is responsible for all things, falsely conclude God does the evil acts.

Ray had to address this matter when some suggested God willed the rape and murder of little girls.  Not so.  God does not do the evil acts.  The little toady Satan does the actual evil deeds.

It is hard for newbies to understand this.  It takes study of the Scriptures and the Spirit of God to fully understand the Truth of this matter.  Some take some Scriptures and imply that God does the actual evil deeds.

[Johnny70]

Hi John,
That is an interesting statement that God does not do the evil Himself - He just uses an evil tool like Satan who He created specifically to do His evil deeds. Satan is like a "HIT MAN" and that is fine - but I cannot understand how that makes God any less directly involved - Isaiah 45:7 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) "I form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things." Having said that God is not in love with evil but He deems it necessary for the our development -we are molded and treated as raw clay and He is The involved Master Potter IMHO. Did Satan do this -Genesis 6:5-7 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) (Maftir) "5 Adonai saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. 6 Adonai regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. 7 Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them.” And again John who did this - Genesis 19:23-26 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) "23 By the time Lot had come to Tzo‘ar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then Adonai caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S’dom and ‘Amora from Adonai out of the sky. 25 He overthrew those cities, the entire plain, all the inhabitants of the cities and everything growing in the ground. 26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a column of salt." No offence John just curious about how you reason these things out.
Johnny

[Musterseed]

God did not regret making humans. I heard Ray speak on this. God does not regret
anything. He’s Sovereign.
I am not qualifyied with the my limited knowledge of scripture but I do remember certain
things spoken of by Ray. Maybe someone can help me.

[John from Kentucky]

Hi Johnny,

This is a difficult truth to fully understand.

How can God be responsible for every single thing that occurs, and I mean everything, but not Himself do the evil things.

As Ray said.  God is very smart.  He has a high I.Q.  God created a being who is pure evil, a crooked serpent, to do the evil actions that God Himself will just not do because evil things are not in His nature.

Evil is needed to educate His creation.  You cannot know good without knowing evil to contrast good against.

James 1:17 tells us that the good comes from God in whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Another Scripture tells us God cannot lie.  So how can you create a lie if you cannot Yourself lie?  You create a being whose core is a lie.  Jesus said Satan was the father of lies.  Jesus also said Satan was a murderer from his beginning.  So we know where all the murders come from.

Yeah, God has a high I.Q.

The Book of Job is probably the oldest book in the Bible.  From it we learn many fundamental Truths.  Satan is the one who actually does the evil actions.  Satan kills Job's ten children with a destructive wind (tornado) since Satan is the prince of the power of the air.  Satan takes away Job's wealth.  Satan takes Job's health.  But he leaves Job a nagging wife.

God does not do these evil things to Job.  Satan does.  But God sets limits and parameters around the evil that Satan can do.

Yes, the Book of Job teaches us certain basic truths about God and the function of Satan.

Also, the Spirit of God within us teaches fundamental Truths about God.  God does not and cannot rape and kill little girls.  God does not and cannot kill people and children with tornados.  God does not lie.  God is Good.

I find it offensive when others attribute evil deeds to God.  God does not need me, but I will always support and defend our Magnificent God and King.

These matters need to be thought about and studied, and ultimately confirmed in our hearts, our innermost being, by God's Spirit.

"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD GOD Almighty."

[Dennis Vogel]

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

One reason we are here is to learn about "good and evil."

[Johnny70]

Hi Pamela,
No God does not regret (making a mistake) creating mankind as He could see ahead that was man's future - a flood. God caused the circumstances that produced such an outcome and the future could not be otherwise. God is sovereign so that cannot be the case. I believe what was being suggested or ascribed here was a human emotion - that was ANTHROPOMORPHIC. This was to relate to a human emotion of regret. As in this example the REGRET in Genesis 6:7 is the same as the JEALOUSCY in Exodus 20:5. There are many such texts.  Take for example the fact that God is all powerful (Jer. 32:17,27 ), yet He rests (Gen. 2:2).  We see that God is in all places (Psalm 139:7-12), yet He asks Adam, "Where are you?" (Gen. 3:9).  We see that God knows all things (1 John 3:20).  Yet, we see that God says, "Now I know that you fear God..." (Gen.

Gen. 6:6-7, "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I REGRET that I ever made them.” 

Exodus 20:5, "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a JEALOUS God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Johnny

[Johnny70]

Hi John,
Great to have this discussion. Before we can go on much further can you please explain the logic contained here of a Creator that is intelligent having an infinite magnitude of information available to Him and has - "created a being who is pure evil, a crooked serpent, to do the evil actions that God Himself will just not do because evil things are not in His nature." Where did the pure evil originate from that was NOT IN GOD's NATURE (to begin with I take it) that was implicit in the NATURE of Satan. What was the derivation for such pure evil? We know that God knows both good and evil Genesis 3:4-5 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” I am not saying that God is EVIL - God is ultimately INCREDIBLELY GOOD. But God must possess as The Creator all the information on evil as you say Satan is pure evil! This information must of had been utilized in Satan's creation by God to produce the being that Satan became - a liar and a murder as you say in the purest form.

And second to that who was it that flooded the world and rained down fire on Sodom & Gomorrah - was it God or Satan.

Johnny

[Musterseed]

WOW , Johnny70
I’m reading your posts and I can almost hear you speaking ,,,and I have heard you speak. Your words reflect how much you love to have DISCUSSIONS.Anthropomorphic, what the heck is that? I just don,t understand all your big
words, multiple questions,and large caps to make your point.

God is ultimately INCREDIBLY GOOD, how generous of you to bestow such an honour on our Lord .

JFK gave you an honest and sincere answer. It is a difficult truth to understand without
the spirit of God indwelling.

In Christ Pamela,

[John from Kentucky]

Hi John,
Great to have this discussion. Before we can go on much further can you please explain the logic contained here of a Creator that is intelligent having an infinite magnitude of information available to Him and has - "created a being who is pure evil, a crooked serpent, to do the evil actions that God Himself will just not do because evil things are not in His nature." Where did the pure evil originate from that was NOT IN GOD's NATURE (to begin with I take it) that was implicit in the NATURE of Satan. What was the derivation for such pure evil? We know that God knows both good and evil Genesis 3:4-5 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” I am not saying that God is EVIL - God is ultimately INCREDIBLELY GOOD. But God must possess as The Creator all the information on evil as you say Satan is pure evil! This information must of had been utilized in Satan's creation by God to produce the being that Satan became - a liar and a murder as you say in the purest form.

And second to that who was it that flooded the world and rained down fire on Sodom & Gomorrah - was it God or Satan.

Johnny

Johnny,

I would never ask a question like what was God's logic behind the creation of a being like Satan.  I am just dust.  How can dust question the logic of God?  I am arrogant, but not that arrogant.  Sounds like one of those questions a 15 year old would ask. Like, can God create someone greater than Himself?  If He cannot, then He cannot do everything.  It is a misuse of the rules of language.

God tells us His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways higher than ours.

Ray asked where does God's knowledge and wisdom comes from.  You should read and study his bible study on that subject.  You may learn something.

One of God's attributes is patience or longsuffering.  How did God obtain longsuffering?  He must have not always got something He wanted.  He had to wait for it.

There was not a world flood.  There was a flood over a portion of the land.  You err in assuming God did the flooding directly Himself and destroyed Sodom.  You do not know that.  You assume you know with a few Scriptures.  But you ignore what the Book of Job tells us about the mechanics of Satan's actions.

You must put all the Scriptures together in order to learn truth.  A little humility helps, which comes from God.  Hint.  Never put yourself in a position of judging the Judge of all.  Accept what God does and not think you can judge His logic.  You cannot advance in so doing.  Never put yourself in the position thinking God is evil.  He has a knowledge of good and evil, and He created it, but God is not evil.
John

[Dave in Tenn]

Johnny, read the link I posted above and you'll see, I think, that you are not "wrong".  Don't let any member of this forum try to spiritually one-up you.  We all understand less than we think we do.

From my chair, I simply don't fret over the division of labor between the Lord of all and His tools.  ALL things are OF and FOR Him.  Every "evil" (a morally neutral word) is intended by our Father for good (another morally neutral word?).  Ray taught that God does not rape and kill little girls.  JFK says that Satan does it.  I think rapists and murderers do it.  Ray taught, however, that God does evil.  He does not, however, SIN, commit wickedness, or any other equivalent thing. 

It is right that we pray  Deliver us from evil.  Because that is in the will and purpose and intention of God.  Faith looks forward to the answer to that prayer, and wisdom gets her answer even while evil persists.  When evil has served its good purpose, there will be no more sin, wickedness, etc.   

[Johnny70]

Hi John,
John says, "I would never ask a question like what was God's logic behind the creation of a being like Satan.  I am just dust.  How can dust question the logic of God?  I am arrogant, but not that arrogant.  Sounds like one of those questions a 15 year old would ask. Like, can God create someone greater than Himself?  If He cannot, then He cannot do everything.  It is a misuse of the rules of language."

You are right I would never question God's logic behind the creation of a being like Satan - that would be insane and grossly disrespectful of our Creator. But that was not the question! The question had to do with trying to graspe the ORIGIN of Satan's evil. I asked this question twice to be plain. Not to question anything thing to do with God's LOGIC. I was questioning any human logic, John and I was not trying to be offencive.

Johnny

[John from Kentucky]

Hi John,
John says, "I would never ask a question like what was God's logic behind the creation of a being like Satan.  I am just dust.  How can dust question the logic of God?  I am arrogant, but not that arrogant.  Sounds like one of those questions a 15 year old would ask. Like, can God create someone greater than Himself?  If He cannot, then He cannot do everything.  It is a misuse of the rules of language."

You are right I would never question God's logic behind the creation of a being like Satan - that would be insane and grossly disrespectful of our Creator. But that was not the question! The question had to do with trying to graspe the ORIGIN of Satan's evil. I asked this question twice to be plain. Not to question anything thing to do with God's LOGIC. I was questioning any human logic, John and I was not trying to be offencive.

Johnny

O.K. Johnny, I accept that you were not trying to be offensive.

If your question is the origin of Satan's evil, that is easy to answer.

God.  God is the source of every thing that is.  He is the Almighty God and Creator.  God created Satan.  God created evil.  All comes from God.
Also, God is the Savior and Healer of everyone.  Which includes Satan.  Satan will become a source of good.  No one can resist God.  Every knee will bow to Jesus.

[Musterseed]

Job 26:13
By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens, His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Ray,,, God garnished the heavens by His spirit because they are a thing of great glory,
beauty and splendor, but the crooked serpent,,God formed by His hand ,,,,at arms length
thus indicating it was something necessary but not of His heart and spirit.


John I don’t agree that the word jealous in Gen.6:7 is the same jealous in Exodus 20:5

My understanding of Exodus 20:5 is a commandment.

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I , the Lord you God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those
who hate me.

Jealous,,,protective,defencive,vigilant,watchful,heedfull,mindful, careful,attentive, solicitous.


Gen,6:7...    The ESV says “ for I am sorry that I have made them.
                   The YLT says “ for I am repentive

The two scriptures Gen.6:7 and Exo.20.5 of jealous God being the same jealous just doesn’t fit for me.
If anyone sees differently please correct me.

In Christ Pamela

[Wanda]

Johnny,

It was just a short while ago I was confused about God and evil, until Dave and others helped me understand the difference between evil and sin. Now I see God can and does do evil, if not there would be no chastising in our lives. I don't even want to think about a life without God's correction.

We can't put God into neat little compartments, limiting him to fit our idea of what he would or could not do. We know from scripture that he created evil as a necessary componet to his plan, and  without it his whole plan would fall apart. He possesses the knowledge of evil and it's at his disposal to use as he sees fit.

I believe, like in creation,  he was directly involved  with the  flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and many other events as well. I don't believe it is Satan that rapes children either. I see him more as the enticer ,  as he was in the Garden of Eden. 

Dave is right, we understand less than we think we do. God proves that to me everyday.

[Wanda]

Pamela - a different translation.

Genesis 6:6  (KJV)

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Repent -

Pronounce: naw-kham'

Strong: H5162

Orig: a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).

[indianabob]

Thanks all for the alternate translations of foreign words for a better understanding.

It's good to remember that even though God inspired the original, we are reading an English translation
that had its roots in "a committee" 400 years ago and that most of the members of that group were former Catholic priests with a culture of "religion" to protect.
Also that, as I understand it, God requires the indwelling of His spirit to give a full understanding.
Human intellect is not the measure of a competent Bible scholar.

Kindly offered, Indianabob

[Johnny70]

Hi Dave,

Thanks Dave for the LINK on Ray Smith's great work on EVIL. I believe everything he explains here. I read similar writings of Mr. Smith's back in 2006 when I was not a member of the forum. What Ray says here we should recognize how fortunate we are to have access to such knowledge and understanding. Ray is not the only one to teach and grasp this but of all the people who understands this, HE IS THE BEST at explaining it. Ray does the best job relating this to its sister subject FREEWILL and then to its being collectively responsible for and producing Universal Salvation. God's use of evil is a key supporting column in comprehending the very deep spiritual and unnaturalistic invironment that God operates in. God is supernatural - His thinking transcends man's. That is enough said you guys know this anyway. Thank you Dave, Bob and Wanda for your kind words. Then there is John and Pamela - God must have called in you two to make sure that I got things right - love you all it was a great experience. It has been a short but great run  - I am out of here on these thoughts and subjects!

Johnny     

[AwesomeSavior]

Unless I am wrong, Winter Storm Wesley will be historic. I'll have to check the final numbers in a few days. Things are ramping up..

[Wanda]

This is a significant prophecy in Hosea 9 that refers to the slaughter of the innocent. Does this  judgement also relate to abortion and infertility in the latter days?

11 As for Ephraim, their glory will fly away like a bird—no birth, no pregnancy, and no conception!

12 Though they bring up their children, yet I will bereave them until not a man is left. Yes, woe to them indeed when I depart from them!

13 Ephraim, as I have seen, is planted in a pleasant meadow like Tyre; but Ephraim will bring out his children for slaughter

 16 Ephraim is stricken, their root is dried up, they will bear no fruit. Even though they bear children, I will slay the precious ones of their womb.

 17 My God will cast them away because they have not listened to Him."

[Cypress]

The crazy thing is my mom mentioned this date to me....
It's so crazy. My mom used to be an avid reader of Ray's, but now she has been sucked into the world of rapture and end time prophecies. It makes me sick. She's driving me crazy.

This just in fresh off the wire

The rapture is no later than May 14,2019 and they found Lots wife.😂😂😂