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Author Topic: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?  (Read 776 times)

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Wanda

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Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« on: October 26, 2018, 03:05:51 PM »

Did God ever experience anything bad to become perfect?  Ray made this point in part 2 of the videos... Why Didn't God Just Make us All Like Jesus?

If you haven't listened to these yet, I think you're missing out.

Part 1

https://youtu.be/086Vs1YfaEo

Part 2

https://youtu.be/QRfv2MHM4Z8

I think our creator had to have experienced pain in the birthing of wisdom, how else could he have known what would be necessary for us to become like him. As Ray said, "God will be our daddy". It's all so connected and personal when you think about it. It's BIG!

Does anyone know if this was from one of the coventions or bible studies, because the way Ray ended part 2 it seemed he might have continued this talk somewhere?

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Rene

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2018, 05:09:49 PM »

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Wanda

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2018, 06:01:52 PM »

Thank you Rene. I've listened to these before, but I totally missed the importance of the message Ray was sharing. Just proves you can never here these spiritual gifts Ray left us with, to much.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

yello62

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2018, 04:57:11 PM »

i had come to a similar conclusion some time back.  suffering is so much a part of the development of His children, how could He not know what it is?

i enjoyed these very much. 
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Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

indianabob

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2018, 05:33:57 PM »

Hi folks,

I frankly do not see why it seems necessary for God to learn from His so called experiences.

Example; I have a beaker of water and another beaker of Sodium Hydroxide.
They are just laying there on the work bench and I'm wondering what will happen if I mix them??

So I pour the Sodium into the beaker of water and there is an exothermic reaction with the Sodium dissolving into solution in the water and the water becoming very hot. How interesting! I did not know that. However I did not make a mistake. I was experimenting and I learned a valuable lesson, but then I'm not God and I'm not even a qualified chemist. A chemist would know what was going to happen before the experiment took place, because the experiment was a teaching lesson for other observers.

When God puts humans in an experimental situation to see what they will do or how they would react it is NOT so that God can learn.
It is so that the human can learn what God already knew; because God invented the experiment and all of the conditions surrounding it. God even invented our minds and programmed them to see, hear, smell, think etc. with our God given senses. God knows what pain is because it is simply the stimulation of nerve endings that feed back into the mind's operational program and warn us to stop or react in a preconceived manner.
God didn't put Adam on the earth without a means of communication and then wait to see if Adam would develop speech patterns that God could use to teach Adam. NO, God installed the operational program in Adams mind according to God's perfect will and purpose.
God did not have to be a woman giving birth to know intimately what the experience would feel like to the woman. All of her feelings, both physical and emotional are programmed into her body and her psyche. All have a predetermined purpose and goal.
Likewise God, from the beginning knew exactly how to use His power to produce a perfect result for the intended purpose. God is not a man that He should need to practice to become perfect/complete.

Comments please, Indiana Bob
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2018, 07:25:50 PM »

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Ray has asked the question "where / when / how did God know about good and evil?"

Ray strongly suggests God had to figure things out at one time: https://youtu.be/2PNgXMHGS2U
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Wanda

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 07:37:51 PM »

Thanks for the link Dennis. Ray expounds even further into this concept, with scriptural incites hard to dispute.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 08:13:02 PM »

Quote
I frankly do not see why it seems necessary for God to learn from His so called experiences.

Hi Bob,

I here what your saying, as I just accepted without question, that God always  knew all he does,  because he's God. Neat and simple really, why would I question otherwise, until I did.   Ray's teachings has that affect.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:07:25 PM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

indianabob

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2018, 02:38:09 PM »

Hi Wanda,

Thank you for your thoughtful questions and comments.
I watched the video that Dennis provided and appreciate all that was shared.

Regarding Ray Smith's teaching about God's learning as we do; if that was what was meant. I'm not fully aware of Ray's thoughts on this issue and Ray had lots more to teach if he had lived longer. I don't want to be seen as trying to teach on the forum, so my comments will have to be simple and brief.

My personal thoughts lead me to see God as like an architect sitting down to develop and plan and record a long anticipated new project. The difference being that the human architect in my example has human limits that, so far as is revealed, do not pertain to God.

When a human begins a project they need to count the cost and arrange for the required building materials, e.g. make a list and check it twice. (smile)
When God decided to make a son and provide that son with a kingdom over which the son could rule and serve and build up, God didn't need to count the cost to God's self or any other entity, because God had the power and wisdom to create all things that would be needed as the need arose. No human can do that. Not even a great emperor with absolute authority can create what is needed. An emperor has to depend upon others to carry out the emperor's will, God doesn't need anyone or anything.
Yes, it is apparent from scripture that God desires to be surrounded by beings upon whom God can devote God's love and with whom God can communicate. God does desire to share, in genuine love, all that God's power and wisdom can produce and God did develop a plan to do exactly that, but the implementation of the plan did not require testing or trying a variety of ideas to see what would work or what was best to accomplish God's purpose. If God thought of something in the first instance, then it was going to work as thought of, because God could invent/create what ever was required to do so.

Since God made the sun out of matter that God created in the first place then making animals and people was just a more interesting and wonderful development of the use of that same matter. It's atoms and electrons all the way...,  ;) but that is just what we have named it, God may have a better description to share with us someday in the distant future.

It is my hope that we can share thoughts on this subject with love and amazement about God's wonderful and fulfilling plan for the whole of creation.

Kindly offered, Indiana bob
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2018, 04:01:53 PM »

Regarding Ray Smith's teaching about God's learning as we do; if that was what was meant.

Ray never even implied that God learns like a man.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 04:14:40 PM »

When God decided to make a son and provide that son with a kingdom over which the son could rule and serve and build up, God didn't need to count the cost to God's self or any other entity, because God had the power and wisdom to create all things that would be needed as the need arose.

It's obvious you did not watch the video or if you did watch it you did not understand it.

Ray goes to great length to explain where God's "wisdom" came from using the scriptures. God did not always have this wisdom as you say.

"It was difficult for God" Ray Smith
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 04:23:23 PM »

but the implementation of the plan did not require testing or trying a variety of ideas to see what would work or what was best to accomplish God's purpose. If God thought of something in the first instance, then it was going to work as thought of, because God could invent/create what ever was required to do so.

You don't know that for a fact - You make it sound like it was all very easy for God. He had a perfect thought and it just happened. No effort, no thought process. It just happened.

You need to watch the video Bob.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 04:38:24 PM »

Since God made the sun out of matter that God created in the first place then making animals and people was just a more interesting and wonderful development of the use of that same matter. It's atoms and electrons all the way...,  ;) but that is just what we have named it, God may have a better description to share with us someday in the distant future.

Angles are spirit and have no matter. Are they just afterthoughts?

When it comes to humans it's not 'electrons all the way'. It's God's spirit in us that makes us human and worthy of God's attention.
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indianabob

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2018, 10:25:47 PM »

but the implementation of the plan did not require testing or trying a variety of ideas to see what would work or what was best to accomplish God's purpose. If God thought of something in the first instance, then it was going to work as thought of, because God could invent/create what ever was required to do so.

You don't know that for a fact - You make it sound like it was all very easy for God. He had a perfect thought and it just happened. No effort, no thought process. It just happened.

You need to watch the video Bob.


Hi Dennis,
Thank you for the kind reply.
Question: what is so strange about God having the power to create "easily"?
Is it because God is so patient and long suffering toward us?
= =
We want to believe that God is so much superior to any idea that mankind could conceive, so why cannot God be able to create by fiat, by thinking the thought or saying the word, rather than after much struggle over long periods of time, time as it applies to God not to humans? Does having to struggle to fulfill a concept make the result more valuable? Not for God. All is of God in the final analysis.
I view God as able to watch us sinning against one another as a parent observing his own children wrestling or fighting over a toy or any other selfish attitude. Why should God be overly concerned to see children behaving as they were designed to behave and having to learn through physical pain or even death that there is a much better way and that only God can provide it, when God is ready so to do.
God taught the first parents to avoid the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but God knew they would disobey and expected it, otherwise why put Satan in the garden to tempt eve?
We are not put here to learn to be perfect as God is perfect; that is impossible. Rather we are here to learn that God alone can make us perfect and only at a time that God decides it is best; after the lord Jesus is ruling on the earth.
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indianabob

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2018, 10:39:56 PM »

Since God made the sun out of matter that God created in the first place then making animals and people was just a more interesting and wonderful development of the use of that same matter. It's atoms and electrons all the way...,  ;) but that is just what we have named it, God may have a better description to share with us someday in the distant future.

Angles are spirit and have no matter. Are they just afterthoughts?

When it comes to humans it's not 'electrons all the way'. It's God's spirit in us that makes us human and worthy of God's attention.

Hi again Dennis,
Thanks for your patience and please forgive my curiosity on this subject if it seems inappropriate.
True, angels are not flesh and blood, but we don't even have a definition for "spirit" other than invisible like breath. We just know spirit by its power in the physical realm, yes, no?
=
As far as the electron idea for how atoms are made and exist to form matter, it is the best we can imagine so far and without God keeping us alive physically we would have no real use for God's spirit since it doesn't function in a person apart from a living body to receive and be aware of the effect it has on our daily lives.
For example, when we are dead we can no longer appreciate God's spirit. Not until a future resurrection to life once again. Would you agree?

Also, I don't believe that we are "worthy" of God's attention. Any attention we get from God is due to God's desire to work with us for God's own purposes and not for any worthiness of our own. We are just the dust, the clay that God is molding into whatever form or finished product that God desires.

Kindly offered, Bob
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Joel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 12:33:50 AM »

Jesus made a statement that came to my mind here;

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father has worked [even] until now.- He has never ceased working, He is still working - and I too must be at [divine] work.   Amplified Bible.


Joel
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cjwood

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2018, 04:42:48 AM »

Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay. 

The word there “brought forth” is H2342 chûl (khool, kheel) A primitive root; properly to twist or to dance (in some contexts, but there is only one application of it), to writhe in pain… 

Not just to hurt…  you know ‘writhing’ in pain, when you can’t even think straight. 

- bear, bring forth, calve, great, grieve, grievous, be in pain, sore, sorrow, travail (with pain).

Those are powerful words aren’t they. If you went through all that you would think you were in childbirth. Guess what this word means here, “I was brought forth”? Travailed - birthed. Can this mean what it says? 


He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us. 



After rereading the transcript, and listening again to Ray's conference video about, did God ever do an honest day's work in His life it becomes very clear that in "bringing forth" wisdom God, the Master Creator did experience travail and long suffering, much as a woman does in her labor when the time has come to deliver her child.  Perhaps that IS the why, and how God could, and would create woman to bring forth children.  By His own experience with wisdom before He even created Eve (or anything else).  The more we learn by God's Spirit, the more there is to learn.  And He never disappoints.

All praise and glory to God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ.

claudia

 



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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2018, 11:54:45 AM »

but the implementation of the plan did not require testing or trying a variety of ideas to see what would work or what was best to accomplish God's purpose. If God thought of something in the first instance, then it was going to work as thought of, because God could invent/create what ever was required to do so.

You don't know that for a fact - You make it sound like it was all very easy for God. He had a perfect thought and it just happened. No effort, no thought process. It just happened.

You need to watch the video Bob.

Quote
We want to believe that God is so much superior to any idea that mankind could conceive, so why cannot God be able to create by fiat, by thinking the thought or saying the word, rather than after much struggle over long periods of time, time as it applies to God not to humans? Does having to struggle to fulfill a concept make the result more valuable? Not for God. All is of God in the final analysis.

Why are you arguing against points Ray proved in the video with the scriptures? Do I need to remake every point Ray makes in the video in a post?

You have not watched the video yet, have you? Too stubborn?

Quote
Question: what is so strange about God having the power to create "easily"?
Is it because God is so patient and long suffering toward us?

You make it sound like creating certain things was easy for God. Perhaps. But the entire creation was difficult for God. Watch the video and learn.

Quote
I view God as able to watch us sinning against one another as a parent observing his own children wrestling or fighting over a toy or any other selfish attitude. Why should God be overly concerned to see children behaving as they were designed to behave and having to learn through physical pain or even death that there is a much better way and that only God can provide it, when God is ready so to do.

Your views are meaningless if you cannot back them up with chapter and verse.

Where in the video does Ray say God is overly concerned? But your words imply God does not care which implies God does not love.

Gal 5:22-23  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So did God just wish these attributes on Himself? But we have to suffer to learn them?

Where did God learn patience and longsuffering? Just something He always had? If so, then why do we have to learn it with much difficulty?

Quote
God taught the first parents to avoid the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but God knew they would disobey and expected it, otherwise why put Satan in the garden to tempt eve?

God did not teach the first parents anything. He instructed them which is not the same thing as teaching and learning. Everyone has to learn about good and evil. And where does it say Adam and Eve were the first parents?

Quote
We are not put here to learn to be perfect as God is perfect; that is impossible. Rather we are here to learn that God alone can make us perfect and only at a time that God decides it is best; after the lord Jesus is ruling on the earth.

So we should just go about our business and make no effort to be good/perfect?

Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You're saying all we have to do is learn that only God can make us perfect? That's it? No effort?

Jas 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

So I guess the Ten Commandments are out as well as much of the New Testament's teachings? Just learn that only God can make us perfect?


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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2018, 12:58:47 PM »

Since God made the sun out of matter that God created in the first place then making animals and people was just a more interesting and wonderful development of the use of that same matter. It's atoms and electrons all the way...,  ;) but that is just what we have named it, God may have a better description to share with us someday in the distant future.

Angles are spirit and have no matter. Are they just afterthoughts?

When it comes to humans it's not 'electrons all the way'. It's God's spirit in us that makes us human and worthy of God's attention.

Quote
True, angels are not flesh and blood, but we don't even have a definition for "spirit" other than invisible like breath.

We don't have a definition for 'spirit'?

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And what else is God?

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

We can describe light, but to this day we don't know what light is because it's both particle and a wave. But it's still very important.

Quote
We just know spirit by its power in the physical realm, yes, no?

Not exclusively - The spirit God puts in us is not physical and the work it does in us is not physical. Love is not physical but it can result in physical actions.

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Wanting to walk in God's statutes is spiritual, not physical, but can result in physical actions.

Quote
Also, I don't believe that we are "worthy" of God's attention. Any attention we get from God is due to God's desire to work with us for God's own purposes and not for any worthiness of our own. We are just the dust, the clay that God is molding into whatever form or finished product that God desires.

Words have meaning Bob. To say we are not worthy of God's attention is treading on dangerous ground.

Would you say a pregnant woman's baby is not worthy of attention? Are we not in the womb now?

Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth

For whom were the heavens declared? To impress the angles who have no need for anything physical? Perhaps we are worthy?

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Wanda

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Re: Did God Ever Experience Anything Bad?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2018, 01:20:49 PM »

This is from the transcript - Who and What is Jesus

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Isa 53:5  ‘But He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the punishment that made us whole, and by His bruises we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

So not only did He have to carry all of our sins and shortcomings and everything else to the cross. But all His life He carried the pain, the sickness, the disease and the infirmaries in His body. Why? Because God is not going to put us through something that He is not willing to go through Himself! That’s why we follow in His footsteps, see. Now you have to understand in the same way that God spoke through Christ, every time He opened His mouth and God healed people, every time Christ said stand up or walk or whatever, the Father was doing it!  In the same way, the Father is suffering through His Son.

So God was suffering through His Son. What is this all about? Is this more of this bizarre stuff? What is this all about? Here is the Son of Man, all filled with diseases, sicknesses, infirmaries and all of that. He put the iniquities of us all on Him

Isa 53:10  Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush Him with pain.  When You(the Lord) make His life an Offering for sin,

So why all this stuff? Why couldn’t Jesus Christ have been this gorgeous, handsome looking young man? Why was He somebody who was on the verge of ugly, diseased, and sick, bent over in pain and misery? FOR US!
I don’t think the church gets it. I don’t think Christianity knows what’s going on.

I don’t know what God went through, and some people will call me a heretic for that, but I really don’t care, it’s just something I feel in my spirit. That God knows evil and good, first hand, some how. His Son was not the first to suffer evil, I believe that happened, some how. Now you will say, how? Where? Well He had a knowledge of good and evil before there was a creation, He had that. Where did He get it? He got it from somewhere. 

Amen


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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12
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