bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science  (Read 4309 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2020, 09:58:46 PM »

Quote
I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation.

I have not been following this. I have other things to deal with right now and I've barely skimmed it a few times. But I just saw the above.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

As Ray points out time and again. The bible is full of symbols, metaphors, etc. Neither verse should be taken literally.

I understand that Dennis, but if Eve was spiritually dead how is she the mother of all spiritually living? You acknowledge the figures of old such as Noah and Moses were all real and they represented something for the elect of God for our admonishment and yet these were all their actual stories. I'm not sure where I should begin throwing out stories in the scripture I don't like because of the beliefs of the current Zeitgeist it just doesn't make sense at least not to me.
Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2020, 10:11:57 PM »

Here are my thoughts on the topic.

Starting with Adam:
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all,
forever praised.
Genesis 2:7
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or
life, and the man became a living being (other translations says living soul).
Strong’s Concordance 5315 soul is nephesh, definition, a soul, living being, life, person, desire, passion,
appetite, emotion. The inner being of a man...continued “a living being” in Strong’s is chay it is and
adjective, feminine, noun, meaning alive, living...of man, a living man.
THEN COMPARE:
In Genesis 1:26 we read...Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them
rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over every creeping thing that
creepeth upon the earth” (The Neanderthal were hunter gatherers????)
It is still the same creation but in Genesis 2 we get told in greater detail how He did it, He breathed life
into his nostrils. I believe that Adam received Gods spirit, received knowledge of good and evil, ate the
forbidden fruit (having an understanding, learning contrasts), started tilling the ground, using tools,
becoming smart (smarter that the Neanderthals????)
They found skeletons older that 300 000 years old, fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco. There were
certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam
onwards, we follow Christs ancestry.
These were human beings who lived without having the knowledge of God (the forbidden fruit) but they
had a desire to worship something, I.e. the sun, the moon, the stars etc. Because now one is without
excuse to believe in a higher being by what is visible by what we see in nature and around us. It is in our
dna to want to believe in something.
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine
nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are
without excuse"

Love
Heidi
I understand what you're saying Heidi, but it doesn't explain everything. Why would Paul in Rom 5:12 state that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. So the other humans you believe were around with Adam wouldn't have sinned. They were not in Adam. Therefore since they have no trespass, no knowledge, etc... they are not going to die since we know the soul that sins will die (Eze 18:20). I thought Christ sacrificed himself as a ransom for all since all have fallen short of the glory of God not some?
Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10

Wanda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
  • I leave with you my peace
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2020, 11:15:03 PM »

Quote
I understand that Dennis, but if Eve was spiritually dead how is she the mother of all spiritually living?

The promise of a Savior from man’s rebellious nature is something we see consistently throughout Scripture—from its origin in Genesis, all the way through to Christ’s ultimate victory in Revelation.

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

With the woman’s seed is a hope for life that defeats death, hence the mother of all living

The seed of the woman would redeem All of humanity, and not just the elect.
Is this not Gods plan for mankind since before their creation?

1 Cor 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

Hebrews 2:14–15

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject.

Dennis sees something in addition, that's just beyond my reach.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 03:36:19 AM by Wanda »
Logged
I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
  • I leave with you my peace
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2020, 03:39:00 AM »

Nshan,

Mike started a thread, "First People" and the subject of other people was well discussed @ 6 pages.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,17135.0.html

One of Mike's comments I thought was a real eye opener, but there are many others too.

Quote
And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.

We all sin and fall short of God's glory, so I'm confused why you would say Eve can't be the mother of all living because she's spiritually dead. Are we all spiritually dead?

Logged
I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2020, 10:43:18 AM »

Nshan,

Mike started a thread, "First People" and the subject of other people was well discussed @ 6 pages.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,17135.0.html

One of Mike's comments I thought was a real eye opener, but there are many others too.

Quote
And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.

We all sin and fall short of God's glory, so I'm confused why you would say Eve can't be the mother of all living because she's spiritually dead. Are we all spiritually dead?

I didn't say that Wanda. She is the mother of all living, but she was spiritually dead or do you not agree? Because of Jesus Christ we are not all spiritually dead, but we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive for Him. Without Him there is no life. I'm confused how I can be completely clear and yet you're interpreting it as though I'm saying Eve isn't the mother of all living? I don't understand how any of your previous comments negates what I'm saying.
Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10

Dennis Vogel

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3048
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2020, 12:07:54 PM »

Hi again Dennis,
You make a valid point.
However if we take what was written according to how the people of that day and time would have understood it (without lots of explanation because they were accustomed to speak in a familiar manner) then I believe that the hearer would have understood it spiritually without any explanation such as we who depend upon a translation would need.
Please also consider the following verse from Matthew 10:

Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Also in Luke 14:

Luk 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not [love less] his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29  Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30  Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Hoping to add a little light...Bob

I agree Bob. You are correct. They understood it was not meant to be taken literally. It's symbolic. That's the whole point.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Have you not considered Gen 3:20 is talking about the "living" the same way Mat 8:22 talks about the "dead"?

I think the real problem here is people want to believe Eve is the mother of every human being that ever lived. But that's not what the above verse says. It does not say Eve is the mother of all humans. It says "living" which Strong's says can mean "literally or figuratively."

Adam was alive at this time. Was Eve also his mother? Is Eve also the mother of all the dead? Accordingly she should be because all humans die.

Strong's says the Hebrew word "all" can also mean "any" or "as many as." This is the same as the Greek word "all" and can also legitimately mean "as many as."

So who are the dead and who are the living in these two verses? Who inspired those two verses? Are they connected?

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 
Logged

indianabob

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1840
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2020, 12:29:30 PM »

Hi Dennis,
Thanks for that further explanation. Much appreciated.
I'll think on it some more.
Indiana Bob
Logged

Dennis Vogel

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3048
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2020, 12:34:46 PM »

Quote
I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation.

I have not been following this. I have other things to deal with right now and I've barely skimmed it a few times. But I just saw the above.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

As Ray points out time and again. The bible is full of symbols, metaphors, etc. Neither verse should be taken literally.

I understand that Dennis, but if Eve was spiritually dead how is she the mother of all spiritually living? You acknowledge the figures of old such as Noah and Moses were all real and they represented something for the elect of God for our admonishment and yet these were all their actual stories. I'm not sure where I should begin throwing out stories in the scripture I don't like because of the beliefs of the current Zeitgeist it just doesn't make sense at least not to me.

I hope I did not imply Eve was spiritually dead? Because I do not see that. If anything she would have to be one of the living to be the mother of them.
Logged

Wanda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
  • I leave with you my peace
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2020, 10:54:02 PM »

Quote
We all sin and fall short of God's glory, so I'm confused why you would say Eve can't be the mother of all living because she's spiritually dead. Are we all spiritually dead?

didn't say that Wanda. She is the mother of all living, but she was spiritually dead or do you not agree? Because of Jesus Christ we are not all spiritually dead, but we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive for Him. Without Him there is no life. I'm confused how I can be completely clear and yet you're interpreting it as though I'm saying Eve isn't the mother of all living? I don't understand how any of your previous comments negates what I'm saying.

My apologies Nshan,  I see where I confused things. Without carefully reading I misunderstood you to mean, because Eve sinned she was spiritually dead. And no, I don't believe she was alive in Christ, as one of the elect.  However, she is the mother of both those spiritually alive as well as the spiritually dead, for the reasons I previously posted. 

Genesis 3 CLV
20  And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Considering Salvation is first to those in Christ, I can also see that Eve would first become the mother of all who would be alive in Christ.

Through her seed, (Seth's) Godly line,  the Savior would come. I don't see where Eve herself would need to be spiritually living. Maybe Dennis has some insight into that.

Logged
I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2020, 02:16:21 AM »

Just a heads up, I'm not trying to be rude or attack anyone in this post so sorry if it comes off this way. And don't apologize Wanda I'm trying to make sense out of all this. This topic is a bit personal to me as it feels flat out evil to cast away people from the family of God. Maybe we're at different points of understanding.

To me at least it doesn't take a lot to understand that Eve is the mother of all living BECAUSE she made living beings aka babies with Adam. You say line upon line and precept upon precept yet you don't even seem to want to humor the scriptures that would completely contradict the notion of more than one Adam or Adam + friends. We either all die in Adam or the scriptures lie and we don't. Can you show me where it says some die in Adam please so I can be sure Christ is only saving the few and not all men especially of those who believe? I believe you think the above verse Gen 3:20 doesn't say that because you don't even have multiple witnesses, so perhaps you don't even fully understand it or the implications of what you're saying (casting people off from the family of God).  Do you really want to believe we're not all God's offspring through Adam (first the physical one and then the spiritual one) and he isn't far from any one of us? Isn't that what Paul said, or are we not really all in Adam? You are not wrong about Adam and Eve being symbolic but so were: Moses, Noah, Joseph, David etc. and yet were these real people with their actual stories. Their lives were written for our admonishment. Unless you want to start saying things like the walls of Jericho didn't actually fall down,  the Red Sea was never parted, Israel never had a king... 

Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10

Heidi

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2020, 05:15:48 PM »

In Roman's 8:20-21 we read,

"20For the creature was made subject to vanity: not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope. 21Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God."

Strongs 3937 of creature is ktisis and its definition is creation (the act or the product)

We are all God's creation, Homo erectus,  Homo sapiens, Neanderthal, people who lived 300 000 years ago etc. 

It is only now in this period of grace that God has revealed the mystery of His truth.  We are the kingdom of God in which he is building his church, the first fruits.

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed."  Remember what we've been taught, that it is Christ who is, was and will be until he comes again.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 05:21:39 PM by Heidi »
Logged
For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring"

Wanda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
  • I leave with you my peace
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2020, 05:28:16 PM »

Quote
I believe you think the above verse Gen 3:20 doesn't say that because you don't even have multiple witnesses, so perhaps you don't even fully understand it or the implications of what you're saying (casting people off from the family of God).  Do you really want to believe we're not all God's offspring through Adam (first the physical one and then the spiritual one) and he isn't far from any one of us? Isn't that what Paul said, or are we not really all in Adam?

Nshan,

I do understand your frustration.

The verse is confusing if we only see it as literal and not symbolic of something much bigger. The bigger, is Jesus, the Savior of All. Not that Eve was literally the mother of All.  If we can only see the literal how will we ever see the spiritual? First the natural then the spiritual. Eve is the natural, Jesus is the spiritual and the message in Genesis 3:20 Is a spiritual one.

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

Is this not a witness?

Not one of us here is casting anyone out of the family of God, nor would We want to.  We believe the word of God that tells us of his magnificent plan to save ALL OF MANKIND, NOT JUST A FEW. 
Logged
I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Heidi

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2020, 05:37:20 PM »

Hi Nshan response to my post you ask:

"the world and death by sin. So the other humans you believe were around with Adam wouldn't have sinned. They were not in Adam. Therefore since they have no trespass, no knowledge, etc... they are not going to die since we know the soul that sins will die (Eze 18:20). I thought Christ sacrificed himself as a ransom for all since all have fallen short of the glory of God not some?"

That is an absolute truth, He did sacrifice himself as ransom for all.

We read in Roman's 2:12-16
"12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Roman's 11:33-36 (one of my favorite sculptures)
"33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!  How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”  35“Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”  36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen."

God made sure to cover everything.....believe in His Sovereignty
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 05:39:52 PM by Heidi »
Logged
For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring"

Heidi

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2020, 05:51:40 PM »

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

Is this not a witness?

Not one of us here is casting anyone out of the family of God, nor would We want to.  We believe the word of God that tells us of his magnificent plan to save ALL OF MANKIND, NOT JUST A FEW.

Well said Wanda, also another witness is Roman's 1:2 "2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" other translations say " to his human nature" was a descendant of David.

Heidi

« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 05:54:45 PM by Heidi »
Logged
For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring"

Wanda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
  • I leave with you my peace
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2020, 06:07:01 PM »

Quote
Roman's 11:33-36 (one of my favorite sculptures)
"33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!  How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”  35“Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”  36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen."

God made sure to cover everything.....believe in His Sovereignty

Amen to that Heidi. Thanks for addressing Ishan's question, it was spot on.
Logged
I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM »

You have all either completely missed the point or flat out ignored what has been stated. And no you obviously don't understand my frustration. Let me re-iterate:

1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [No other Adam was formed BEFORE Adam]
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man [emphatically ONE] sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man [not multiple days of other humans] in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.

How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.

If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?

Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?
Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10

Wanda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
  • I leave with you my peace
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2020, 01:06:22 AM »

Quote
You have all either completely missed the point or flat out ignored what has been stated. And no you obviously don't understand my frustration. Let me re-iterate:

You are right Nshan, it's glaringly obvious I don't understand your frustration, as I've never become so frustrated that I've insulted other members, and I hope I never do. 

Not one of us have tried to force this on you, but have tried to answer your questions. Mike backed off pretty early after he realized where this thread was headed, me, I'm a little slow.




Logged
I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2020, 01:41:01 AM »

Excuse me? I don't believe that I've insulted you or others. I'm presenting scriptures about Adam that indicate all of us are God's offspring and that he isn't far from any of us VERSUS we are not all God's offspring, we had some others here and there and Adam wasn't first formed so not all of us are in Adam... which is exceedingly insulting of itself. The scriptures are the ones that are doing the cutting. If this is offensive I don't know what else to say.
Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10

Porter

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 173
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2020, 09:59:28 AM »



Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.

Check the verse after Rom. 5:12.

Rom 5:13  In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.

Was there really no sin before Adam? Is Paul contradicting himself in verses 12 and 13? Or was it that there was no knowledge of sin before Adam? The whole point of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to give knowledge of good and evil through the law of Christ so that we may be held accountable, so we know we are accountable. Judgment corrects us by opening our eyes to our sinful nature.

Just as Ray stated from Scripture, all of humanity operates under one of these two laws: The law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Most are under the law of sin and death due to a lack of knowledge. God's Elect were under the same law of sin and death also at one time, but now have been made free (from sin and death) by the law of Christ.

Adam and Eve were clueless (blind) to their "nakedness" (unrighteousness) and sinful nature even before they ate of the fruit. If Eve  supposedly sinned first because she was deceived, in what manner did sin "enter the world" through Adam first? How can the many that call Jesus Lord know their sinful, God hating, selfish nature unless they receive knowledge by the spiritual law?

Rom_7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil like the spiritual law of Christ through which we are able to see the beast within? Who knows what's good or evil? No, seriously, i wanna know.

Heb 5:13  Now everyone who lives on milk (physical law?) is inexperienced with the message about righteousness, because he is an infant.
Heb 5:14  But solid food (spiritual law? tree with solid fruit to eat?) is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.

I think the story of Adam and Eve is told in a way that reveals the plan of God for all humanity, but not everyone knows this. Most see the story as literal or historical (not saying the literal didn't happen), which I believe throws them off. The literal physical sinful Adam (representing sinful humanity) is first, the Second spiritual sinless Adam (humanity IN Christ) is Christ. First the physical, second the spiritual. We will be married to Christ, to become one in Christ. That is why it is said, when a man and woman marry, they become one. That is also why Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the Church. Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was, but disobeyed God anyway, because he didn't want to be alone without Eve knowing she would die for disobeying God. Adam disobeyed and volunteered to die with his wife Eve like Christ obeyed and volunteered to die for His wife, the Church. I think Adam wanted to die for his own selfish reasons (which most of us would have done in his shoes), but Christ wanted to die to give us life, out of love for His wife, the Church.

What I wanna know is, what was sin before Adam and before the law? Was it still sin, but just not being judged? Did it only become sin when Adam disobeyed God knowing it would lead to his death even though Eve disobeyed God first because she was deceived by Satan?

How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.

Literally speaking, how can Eve be a mother if she'd never had children yet?

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

If she hadn't had children yet, it must mean the mother of all spiritually living. The CLV translates a bit better.

Gen 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem? I thought the mother of us all was Eve?

If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?

Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?

The "earthly things" don't matter, because they will pass away, because they are not important. Earthly things are temporary, like literal Adam. The earthly things Jesus is referring to were the physical miracles He performed, and the teaching of the physical law. They didn't know the physical law was actually spiritual. Jesus said the greater things are the spiritual law and the spiritual miracles. Remember, we are blessed because we haven't seen Jesus physically, but yet we still believe.

Joh_20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The earthly things Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus are the same things He's been trying to tell them for a long time through the prophets.

Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The earthly physical things (including the physical miracles of Christ) were mere types and shadows of the spiritual reality that is life in Christ. If we believe the story of Adam and Eve as literal, we will stay in the shadow of death and sin. Literal interpretations always causes divisions. If we believe it is spiritual, we step into the light of the life of Christ. The spiritual truth have brought us together here. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, we've all been there and done that. This is not a knock against the OP, I'm already convinced (based on my own studies) in my own mind about whether or not humans were here before Adam and Eve.

Is it important to know when sin entered the world? Or is it more important to know the sin in us? How can sin be removed if God doesn't first show us what our sin is? Do you always know when you sin? Will the ignorant be judged less harshly? Will those that know the truth (surely you will die/wages of sin is death) be judged more harshly if we disobey God like Adam did? The OT makes an example out of the Israelite that constantly disobeyed God. For whom were the Scriptures written for? These are just some questions floating around in my head.

 The story of Adam and Eve was the start of many great spiritual things to come, hidden in plain sight. I truly believe the stories in the OT, if taken literally, were meant to throw us off. It did just that for a time didn't it? It continues to do so for many today. So take it easy on those of us that do not understand or agree with a certain literal interpretation in the bible.

I'm so blessed to get a glimpse of the spiritual things to come, it's really my only hope. Also, sorry for the wall of text, didn't expect to write that much.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 10:07:46 AM by Porter »
Logged
Sometimes when I close my eye's, I can't see.

nshan

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2020, 02:28:02 PM »



Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.

Check the verse after Rom. 5:12.

Rom 5:13  In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.

Was there really no sin before Adam? Is Paul contradicting himself in verses 12 and 13? Or was it that there was no knowledge of sin before Adam? The whole point of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to give knowledge of good and evil through the law of Christ so that we may be held accountable, so we know we are accountable. Judgment corrects us by opening our eyes to our sinful nature.

Just as Ray stated from Scripture, all of humanity operates under one of these two laws: The law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Most are under the law of sin and death due to a lack of knowledge. God's Elect were under the same law of sin and death also at one time, but now have been made free (from sin and death) by the law of Christ.

Adam and Eve were clueless (blind) to their "nakedness" (unrighteousness) and sinful nature even before they ate of the fruit. If Eve  supposedly sinned first because she was deceived, in what manner did sin "enter the world" through Adam first? How can the many that call Jesus Lord know their sinful, God hating, selfish nature unless they receive knowledge by the spiritual law?

Rom_7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil like the spiritual law of Christ through which we are able to see the beast within? Who knows what's good or evil? No, seriously, i wanna know.

Heb 5:13  Now everyone who lives on milk (physical law?) is inexperienced with the message about righteousness, because he is an infant.
Heb 5:14  But solid food (spiritual law? tree with solid fruit to eat?) is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.

I think the story of Adam and Eve is told in a way that reveals the plan of God for all humanity, but not everyone knows this. Most see the story as literal or historical (not saying the literal didn't happen), which I believe throws them off. The literal physical sinful Adam (representing sinful humanity) is first, the Second spiritual sinless Adam (humanity IN Christ) is Christ. First the physical, second the spiritual. We will be married to Christ, to become one in Christ. That is why it is said, when a man and woman marry, they become one. That is also why Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the Church. Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was, but disobeyed God anyway, because he didn't want to be alone without Eve knowing she would die for disobeying God. Adam disobeyed and volunteered to die with his wife Eve like Christ obeyed and volunteered to die for His wife, the Church. I think Adam wanted to die for his own selfish reasons (which most of us would have done in his shoes), but Christ wanted to die to give us life, out of love for His wife, the Church.

What I wanna know is, what was sin before Adam and before the law? Was it still sin, but just not being judged? Did it only become sin when Adam disobeyed God knowing it would lead to his death even though Eve disobeyed God first because she was deceived by Satan?

How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.

Literally speaking, how can Eve be a mother if she'd never had children yet?

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

If she hadn't had children yet, it must mean the mother of all spiritually living. The CLV translates a bit better.

Gen 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem? I thought the mother of us all was Eve?

If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?

Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?

The "earthly things" don't matter, because they will pass away, because they are not important. Earthly things are temporary, like literal Adam. The earthly things Jesus is referring to were the physical miracles He performed, and the teaching of the physical law. They didn't know the physical law was actually spiritual. Jesus said the greater things are the spiritual law and the spiritual miracles. Remember, we are blessed because we haven't seen Jesus physically, but yet we still believe.

Joh_20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The earthly things Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus are the same things He's been trying to tell them for a long time through the prophets.

Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The earthly physical things (including the physical miracles of Christ) were mere types and shadows of the spiritual reality that is life in Christ. If we believe the story of Adam and Eve as literal, we will stay in the shadow of death and sin. Literal interpretations always causes divisions. If we believe it is spiritual, we step into the light of the life of Christ. The spiritual truth have brought us together here. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, we've all been there and done that. This is not a knock against the OP, I'm already convinced (based on my own studies) in my own mind about whether or not humans were here before Adam and Eve.

Is it important to know when sin entered the world? Or is it more important to know the sin in us? How can sin be removed if God doesn't first show us what our sin is? Do you always know when you sin? Will the ignorant be judged less harshly? Will those that know the truth (surely you will die/wages of sin is death) be judged more harshly if we disobey God like Adam did? The OT makes an example out of the Israelite that constantly disobeyed God. For whom were the Scriptures written for? These are just some questions floating around in my head.

 The story of Adam and Eve was the start of many great spiritual things to come, hidden in plain sight. I truly believe the stories in the OT, if taken literally, were meant to throw us off. It did just that for a time didn't it? It continues to do so for many today. So take it easy on those of us that do not understand or agree with a certain literal interpretation in the bible.

I'm so blessed to get a glimpse of the spiritual things to come, it's really my only hope. Also, sorry for the wall of text, didn't expect to write that much.

Maybe you should check the verses after 5:13. Paul is not contradicting himself, by one man mankind sinned. The story is symbolic as you have stated yet you don't even believe that there was even ONE ADAM so how can you even believe in the Christ? Should I start saying "people believed God sent two angels to save Lot but this what throws them off, people believed God blessed Abraham with a child but this is what throws them off..."

Are you kidding me with Gen 3:20, you realize it can also mean BECAME as someone stated earlier, but nevertheless Genesis is not written exactly chronologically as it re-iterates what happens during the creation of man and woman in Gen 2 from Gen 1, etc.

So does anyone actually believe the above verses that there was one Adam or do you not actually believe what the scriptures say? All this noise yet constantly dodging the question. You act like I don't understand the flesh profits nothing yet to not even believe the basic things actually happened is astounding to me.
Logged
All things are possible with God - Mat 19:26, Luk 18:27
God is love and never fails - 1Jn 4:16, 1Co 13
God saves the lost (apollumi) - Mat 18:11, Luk 15:24, Luk 19:10
The scribes write with a lying pen - Jer 8:8
About all who were before Him - John 10
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.09 seconds with 27 queries.