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Author Topic: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science  (Read 5254 times)

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ZekeSr

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I'm always amazed when proper translation of Scripture suddenly opens another door of possibility that is far more plausible than mistranslated dogma. A place where Scripter and science suddenly appear to converge. This is something that Ray was always big on. While I'm certainly not going to claim this particular example as absolute, it does make sense. And it is even a tad personal, because my 23&Me results show my genetic ancestry as being slightly less than 4% Neanderthal which is just a tad above average as compared to other 23&Me participants.

Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8xSytOfAAQ
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indianabob

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2020, 12:25:31 AM »

Hi Mike,
When you refer to genetics from Neanderthal, to what distinctions and characteristics do you refer?
Where was Neanderthal found and what are the facts concerning his body structure that can be traced to modern homo sapiens?
thanks Bob
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Musterseed

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2020, 05:18:37 PM »

Hi Mike and Ibob.
Ibob, you ask” where was this Neanderthal found”
Well look no further my friend, because I captured one
about 44 years ago and have been trying to tame it ever
since. I keep it downstairs in its man cave and throw it
some meat from time to time to keep it from growling.
It does a lot of grunting when watching sports
and has taken a liking to doing puzzles which is a bonus
for me because this activity keeps it quiet. This manlike
creature can drive and do manual labor so I think I will keep
it. I know it was a gift from God, however
there have been times when it was a thorn in my side. Maybe it thinks the same of me🤔 only
God knows. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣


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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2020, 05:50:34 PM »

😂 That was priceless Pamela.
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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2020, 05:51:07 PM »

Interesting post Mike!

I've recently been talking to God about the giants in scripture,  and asking for his help in finding the missing piece to understanding. Maybe this is it.

This lines up with what Ray discussed at the 2008 Nashville Conference.  Although I have to admit, I thought you were being funny about your ancestry connection to Neandrathal, until I watched the video. This would also explain the other people that lived outside the garden,  that Ray spoke of. They were gatherers and not tillers of the earth like Adam was.  With this information, It's not to far of a reach for me to consider Cain found his wife from among these people.  It would also explain how the nephalem/fallen ones, still existed after the flood.  I'm going to reconsider my thoughts about the Neandrathal.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 11:31:10 PM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
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ZekeSr

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2020, 06:41:28 PM »

Neanderthals were fully human and, as of today, there have been hundreds of skeletons found everywhere from Britain to the Middle East. Many of their bones are recent enough to extract DNA and their genome has been fully sequenced. If you watched the video you know that the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4 were not giants. The word Nephilim is not properly translated. It is better translated “the fallen ones.” They have fallen in the sense that they no longer exist as a separate group, but they still exist as a genetic remnant in the bodies of many of us today. As I explained to someone, I looked up Nephilim and its roots in ancient Hebrew. The definition fits more precisely to Neanderthals than actual giants. Neanderthals were a form of human that we now know were every bit as intelligent as modern man and lived at the same time as modern humans for thousands of years before they disappeared. They were not tall, but had far more physical potential than the average homo sapien... extremely solid in structure and muscularity. They have been compared to elite modern-day power lifters. Think World’s Strongest Man Contest and you have an idea of the amount of genetic potential a pure Neanderthal would possess (without the steroids) if he were alive and training in the gym today.
I'm not sure what exactly I have inherited, but it sure ain't the strongman part. :)

Mike
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 06:43:51 PM by ZekeSr »
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Doug

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2020, 06:58:17 PM »

Pam your reply made my day! Probably will be chuckling for days.

My goddaughter did a dna test and she was partially Neanderthal. She does not work out but she is extremely strong.
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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2020, 07:24:02 PM »

Mike,
I think it's possible "The Fallen ones" is describing those who were ungodly, because they had turned away from him.
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ZekeSr

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2020, 09:09:38 AM »

Mike,
I think it's possible "The Fallen ones" is describing those who were ungodly, because they had turned away from him.

Wanda,

I can't say really yes or no. There could be a duality to it, as there often is. But my own opinion is that it's a reference to them being a people who died out as a race. For whatever reason, they "fell." But they still remain in the sense that they interbred with the genetic offspring of Adam and Eve. There were definitely humans on the earth before Adam and Eve.

Gen 6:4  There were Nephilim (Neanderthals???) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (genetic offspring of Adam and Eve???) came in unto the daughters of men (preexisting humans???), and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 I'm basing it on the context of time. They are being referenced as having been. And there is yet another species of human recently uncovered. The Denisovans are a new find with very little material discovered, but enough to once again connect some of their genetic material to certain present day people. This one is still on the drawing board, but they were definitely human, closely related to the Neanderthals, and there are indications that they were possibly even bigger.

Mike
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nshan

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2020, 01:14:04 AM »

I thought nephilim meant tyrants and mighty ones not fallen as it would imply nephulim / nophelim from naphal, not nephilim, which would make a lot more sense. There are also strange teachings that carry on with the fallen angels fables that tie into this. Also I doubt Eve could be the mother of all living if there was more than one Adam. If there was more than one Adam then salvation really is only for a few and the scriptures contradict when they say things like that Adam was first formed etc. I'm beginning to understand more and more why Paul wrote to not focus on genealogies as not everyone has this knowledge nor would I like to break anyone's faith if they like these lineage shenanigans. I really don't think neanderthals = nephilim. I will have to look more into this since the scriptures are pretty bulletproof and Ray's old writings on Adam before he said multiple Adams made the most sense... at least to me.
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Psalm 27:13-14; Psalm 34:18-19;
Psalm 17:15 - As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

ZekeSr

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2020, 03:38:09 PM »

I thought nephilim meant tyrants and mighty ones not fallen as it would imply nephulim / nophelim from naphal, not nephilim, which would make a lot more sense. There are also strange teachings that carry on with the fallen angels fables that tie into this. Also I doubt Eve could be the mother of all living if there was more than one Adam. If there was more than one Adam then salvation really is only for a few and the scriptures contradict when they say things like that Adam was first formed etc. I'm beginning to understand more and more why Paul wrote to not focus on genealogies as not everyone has this knowledge nor would I like to break anyone's faith if they like these lineage shenanigans. I really don't think neanderthals = nephilim. I will have to look more into this since the scriptures are pretty bulletproof and Ray's old writings on Adam before he said multiple Adams made the most sense... at least to me.

Hello Nshan,

Nephilim can certainly mean mighty ones and I have no problem with that. I was remiss in not mentioning it myself. Nevertheless, it is from the root word naphal which indicates "to fall, cease, or die." It is almost certainly a connotation of both meanings, but I'm reading it in the framework of Scripture that was written looking back into the past. No the Nephilim do not necessarily have to be Neanderthals. But, so far, the only two species of known human that existed at the same time as "us" were large, powerful, related to each other, and now extinct.

As far as I'm concerned, the interpretation of fallen angels mating with human women is nothing but heretical B.S. and makes no sense whatsoever. 

Concerning Eve:
Gen 3:20  "And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she BECAME the mother of all living" is a more literal translation which can have a whole different implication. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Ray suggesting more than one Adam. Yes he did say there were people on the earth before Adam, but that is scientifically indisputable and not unscriptural. Personally, I have always thought the lineage of Adam and Eve was simply showing the route created leading to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I welcome any further opinion you may have. That's how we learn.

Mike



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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2020, 03:48:10 PM »


I dug a bit deeper and discovered "the fallen ones" are all those who have died by the sword. The mighty ones were the warriors that were known for their reign of terror on the nation's of that time. In this regard they don't exist anymore, but we only need to look at history to know others rose up after them.  Today, these mighty ones, are the terrorists groups in the ME  Nothing new under the sun.

Ezekiel 32

12 I will cause your hordes to fall
    by the swords of mighty men—
    the most ruthless of all nations.

22 “Assyria is there with her whole army; she is surrounded by the graves of all her slain, all who have fallen by the sword.23 Their graves are in the depths of the pit(AH) and her army lies around her grave.(AI) All who had spread terror in the land of the living are slain, fallen by the sword.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 04:18:59 PM by Wanda »
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ZekeSr

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2020, 04:20:55 PM »

Ezekiel 32

12 I will cause your hordes to fall
    by the swords of mighty men—
    the most ruthless of all nations.

22 “Assyria is there with her whole army; she is surrounded by the graves of all her slain, all who have fallen by the sword.23 Their graves are in the depths of the pit(AH) and her army lies around her grave.(AI) All who had spread terror in the land of the living are slain, fallen by the sword.

I think the fallen ones are all those who have fallen by the sword.

Quite true, Wanda.
And no one knows what eventually happened to the Neanderthals. Perhaps, on the whole, they too fell by the sword.

Mike
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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2020, 04:30:58 PM »

Quote
Quite true, Wanda.
And no one knows what eventually happened to the Neanderthals. Perhaps, on the whole, they too fell by the sword.

Mike
I was editing my post while you were replying.☺

Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

There is a duality as well. The sons of God fell from their spiritual heights into moral decay after marrying into the families of these spiritually devoid people. Thus the wickedness spread until no one in the land could be found righteous among them,  except Noah. As always the many and the few.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 09:34:47 PM by Wanda »
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nshan

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2020, 09:44:26 PM »

I thought nephilim meant tyrants and mighty ones not fallen as it would imply nephulim / nophelim from naphal, not nephilim, which would make a lot more sense. There are also strange teachings that carry on with the fallen angels fables that tie into this. Also I doubt Eve could be the mother of all living if there was more than one Adam. If there was more than one Adam then salvation really is only for a few and the scriptures contradict when they say things like that Adam was first formed etc. I'm beginning to understand more and more why Paul wrote to not focus on genealogies as not everyone has this knowledge nor would I like to break anyone's faith if they like these lineage shenanigans. I really don't think neanderthals = nephilim. I will have to look more into this since the scriptures are pretty bulletproof and Ray's old writings on Adam before he said multiple Adams made the most sense... at least to me.



Hello Nshan,

Nephilim can certainly mean mighty ones and I have no problem with that. I was remiss in not mentioning it myself. Nevertheless, it is from the root word naphal which indicates "to fall, cease, or die." It is almost certainly a connotation of both meanings, but I'm reading it in the framework of Scripture that was written looking back into the past. No the Nephilim do not necessarily have to be Neanderthals. But, so far, the only two species of known human that existed at the same time as "us" were large, powerful, related to each other, and now extinct.

As far as I'm concerned, the interpretation of fallen angels mating with human women is nothing but heretical B.S. and makes no sense whatsoever. 

Concerning Eve:
Gen 3:20  "And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she BECAME the mother of all living" is a more literal translation which can have a whole different implication. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Ray suggesting more than one Adam. Yes he did say there were people on the earth before Adam, but that is scientifically indisputable and not unscriptural. Personally, I have always thought the lineage of Adam and Eve was simply showing the route created leading to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I welcome any further opinion you may have. That's how we learn.

Mike

I have trouble understanding how can it be a connotation of both meanings if you're just confusing nephulim / nophelim with nephilim?

I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation. What are you trying to imply? We either all are from Adam or not. I highly doubt there was any person before Adam since he was the first formed, if there were then the scriptures do contradict. Eve can't be the mother of all living if she is not. We can't all die in Adam if we're not all in Adam. By one man sin entered the world not by some. We're now entering into the realm of square circles.

I also don't agree with things being "scientifically indisputable" as all theory is merely that: theory. There are many superseded theories. Even the axioms themselves that we take for granted in math are merely assumptions.
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Psalm 27:13-14; Psalm 34:18-19;
Psalm 17:15 - As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2020, 09:18:17 AM »

Quote
I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation.

I have not been following this. I have other things to deal with right now and I've barely skimmed it a few times. But I just saw the above.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

As Ray points out time and again. The bible is full of symbols, metaphors, etc. Neither verse should be taken literally.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 09:21:59 AM by Dennis Vogel »
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indianabob

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2020, 04:06:20 PM »

Hi Dennis,

Relating to what we believe in faith, I understand that Matt 8:22 is very literal.
Jesus was responding to a man of faith who was asking to follow Jesus and support his ministry.
That Jesus welcomed him and told him to let the "dead" carry out the funeral rituals is very instructive of how we should think of our own position with Jesus as our leader and savior.
Why? Because the term "the dead" refers to those of the man's family without faith.
e.g. Those of Israel who had not yet come to believe that Jesus truly was their Messiah.

Please correct me if I misunderstand.
Indiana B
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2020, 07:52:21 PM »

Hi Dennis,

Relating to what we believe in faith, I understand that Matt 8:22 is very literal.
Jesus was responding to a man of faith who was asking to follow Jesus and support his ministry.
That Jesus welcomed him and told him to let the "dead" carry out the funeral rituals is very instructive of how we should think of our own position with Jesus as our leader and savior.
Why? Because the term "the dead" refers to those of the man's family without faith.
e.g. Those of Israel who had not yet come to believe that Jesus truly was their Messiah.

Please correct me if I misunderstand.
Indiana B

True, but the 'dead' were not literally 'dead' were they?

Jesus did not mean for literally 'dead' people to carry out a funeral. That's impossible.

So it is not literal. It's symbolic.


The Bible Does Not Say What It Means: https://youtu.be/-P6d56OOhCY
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 08:11:58 PM by Dennis Vogel »
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indianabob

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2020, 09:31:31 PM »

Hi again Dennis,
You make a valid point.
However if we take what was written according to how the people of that day and time would have understood it (without lots of explanation because they were accustomed to speak in a familiar manner) then I believe that the hearer would have understood it spiritually without any explanation such as we who depend upon a translation would need.
Please also consider the following verse from Matthew 10:

Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 
Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 
Mat 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 
Mat 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 

Also in Luke 14:

Luk 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not [love less] his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 
Luk 14:27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple
Luk 14:28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 
Luk 14:29  Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 
Luk 14:30  Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 
Luk 14:31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 
Luk 14:32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 
Luk 14:33  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 

Hoping to add a little light...Bob
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Heidi

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2020, 09:51:18 PM »

Here are my thoughts on the topic.

Starting with Adam:
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised.
In Genesis 2:7
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or life, and the man became a living being (other translations says living soul).
Strong’s Concordance 5315 soul is nephesh, definition, a soul, living being, life, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. The inner being of a man...continuing with "living being” in Strong’s is the word "chay" and it is an adjective, feminine, noun, meaning alive, living...of man, a living man.

NEXT COMPARE:
In Genesis 1:26 we read...Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth” (The Neanderthal were hunter gatherers? They were not tilling the ground yet)

It is still the same creation event but in Genesis 2 we get told in greater detail how He did it, He breathed life into his nostrils.

I believe that Adam received Gods spirit, received knowledge of good and evil, ate the forbidden fruit (having an understanding, learning contrasts), started tilling the ground, using tools,
becoming smart (smarter that the Neanderthals?)

They found skeletons older that 300 000 years old, fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco. There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry.

These were human beings who lived without having the knowledge of God (the forbidden fruit) but they had a desire to worship something, I.e. the sun, the moon, the stars etc. Because now one is without excuse to believe in a higher being by what is visible by what we see in nature and around us. 

It is in our DNA to want to believe in something bigger than us. In
Romans 1:20 we read, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse"

Love
Heidi
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 11:57:53 PM by Heidi »
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