> General Discussions
Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
nshan:
You have all either completely missed the point or flat out ignored what has been stated. And no you obviously don't understand my frustration. Let me re-iterate:
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [No other Adam was formed BEFORE Adam]
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man [emphatically ONE] sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man [not multiple days of other humans] in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.
Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.
How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.
If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?
Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?
Wanda:
--- Quote ---You have all either completely missed the point or flat out ignored what has been stated. And no you obviously don't understand my frustration. Let me re-iterate:
--- End quote ---
You are right Nshan, it's glaringly obvious I don't understand your frustration, as I've never become so frustrated that I've insulted other members, and I hope I never do.
Not one of us have tried to force this on you, but have tried to answer your questions. Mike backed off pretty early after he realized where this thread was headed, me, I'm a little slow.
nshan:
Excuse me? I don't believe that I've insulted you or others. I'm presenting scriptures about Adam that indicate all of us are God's offspring and that he isn't far from any of us VERSUS we are not all God's offspring, we had some others here and there and Adam wasn't first formed so not all of us are in Adam... which is exceedingly insulting of itself. The scriptures are the ones that are doing the cutting. If this is offensive I don't know what else to say.
Porter:
--- Quote from: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM ---
Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.
--- End quote ---
Check the verse after Rom. 5:12.
Rom 5:13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
Was there really no sin before Adam? Is Paul contradicting himself in verses 12 and 13? Or was it that there was no knowledge of sin before Adam? The whole point of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to give knowledge of good and evil through the law of Christ so that we may be held accountable, so we know we are accountable. Judgment corrects us by opening our eyes to our sinful nature.
Just as Ray stated from Scripture, all of humanity operates under one of these two laws: The law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Most are under the law of sin and death due to a lack of knowledge. God's Elect were under the same law of sin and death also at one time, but now have been made free (from sin and death) by the law of Christ.
Adam and Eve were clueless (blind) to their "nakedness" (unrighteousness) and sinful nature even before they ate of the fruit. If Eve supposedly sinned first because she was deceived, in what manner did sin "enter the world" through Adam first? How can the many that call Jesus Lord know their sinful, God hating, selfish nature unless they receive knowledge by the spiritual law?
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil like the spiritual law of Christ through which we are able to see the beast within? Who knows what's good or evil? No, seriously, i wanna know.
Heb 5:13 Now everyone who lives on milk (physical law?) is inexperienced with the message about righteousness, because he is an infant.
Heb 5:14 But solid food (spiritual law? tree with solid fruit to eat?) is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.
I think the story of Adam and Eve is told in a way that reveals the plan of God for all humanity, but not everyone knows this. Most see the story as literal or historical (not saying the literal didn't happen), which I believe throws them off. The literal physical sinful Adam (representing sinful humanity) is first, the Second spiritual sinless Adam (humanity IN Christ) is Christ. First the physical, second the spiritual. We will be married to Christ, to become one in Christ. That is why it is said, when a man and woman marry, they become one. That is also why Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the Church. Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was, but disobeyed God anyway, because he didn't want to be alone without Eve knowing she would die for disobeying God. Adam disobeyed and volunteered to die with his wife Eve like Christ obeyed and volunteered to die for His wife, the Church. I think Adam wanted to die for his own selfish reasons (which most of us would have done in his shoes), but Christ wanted to die to give us life, out of love for His wife, the Church.
What I wanna know is, what was sin before Adam and before the law? Was it still sin, but just not being judged? Did it only become sin when Adam disobeyed God knowing it would lead to his death even though Eve disobeyed God first because she was deceived by Satan?
--- Quote from: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM ---How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.
--- End quote ---
Literally speaking, how can Eve be a mother if she'd never had children yet?
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
If she hadn't had children yet, it must mean the mother of all spiritually living. The CLV translates a bit better.
Gen 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Jerusalem? I thought the mother of us all was Eve?
--- Quote from: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM ---If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?
Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?
--- End quote ---
The "earthly things" don't matter, because they will pass away, because they are not important. Earthly things are temporary, like literal Adam. The earthly things Jesus is referring to were the physical miracles He performed, and the teaching of the physical law. They didn't know the physical law was actually spiritual. Jesus said the greater things are the spiritual law and the spiritual miracles. Remember, we are blessed because we haven't seen Jesus physically, but yet we still believe.
Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
The earthly things Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus are the same things He's been trying to tell them for a long time through the prophets.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The earthly physical things (including the physical miracles of Christ) were mere types and shadows of the spiritual reality that is life in Christ. If we believe the story of Adam and Eve as literal, we will stay in the shadow of death and sin. Literal interpretations always causes divisions. If we believe it is spiritual, we step into the light of the life of Christ. The spiritual truth have brought us together here. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, we've all been there and done that. This is not a knock against the OP, I'm already convinced (based on my own studies) in my own mind about whether or not humans were here before Adam and Eve.
Is it important to know when sin entered the world? Or is it more important to know the sin in us? How can sin be removed if God doesn't first show us what our sin is? Do you always know when you sin? Will the ignorant be judged less harshly? Will those that know the truth (surely you will die/wages of sin is death) be judged more harshly if we disobey God like Adam did? The OT makes an example out of the Israelite that constantly disobeyed God. For whom were the Scriptures written for? These are just some questions floating around in my head.
The story of Adam and Eve was the start of many great spiritual things to come, hidden in plain sight. I truly believe the stories in the OT, if taken literally, were meant to throw us off. It did just that for a time didn't it? It continues to do so for many today. So take it easy on those of us that do not understand or agree with a certain literal interpretation in the bible.
I'm so blessed to get a glimpse of the spiritual things to come, it's really my only hope. Also, sorry for the wall of text, didn't expect to write that much.
nshan:
--- Quote from: Porter on March 08, 2020, 09:59:28 AM ---
--- Quote from: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM ---
Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.
--- End quote ---
Check the verse after Rom. 5:12.
Rom 5:13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
Was there really no sin before Adam? Is Paul contradicting himself in verses 12 and 13? Or was it that there was no knowledge of sin before Adam? The whole point of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to give knowledge of good and evil through the law of Christ so that we may be held accountable, so we know we are accountable. Judgment corrects us by opening our eyes to our sinful nature.
Just as Ray stated from Scripture, all of humanity operates under one of these two laws: The law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Most are under the law of sin and death due to a lack of knowledge. God's Elect were under the same law of sin and death also at one time, but now have been made free (from sin and death) by the law of Christ.
Adam and Eve were clueless (blind) to their "nakedness" (unrighteousness) and sinful nature even before they ate of the fruit. If Eve supposedly sinned first because she was deceived, in what manner did sin "enter the world" through Adam first? How can the many that call Jesus Lord know their sinful, God hating, selfish nature unless they receive knowledge by the spiritual law?
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil like the spiritual law of Christ through which we are able to see the beast within? Who knows what's good or evil? No, seriously, i wanna know.
Heb 5:13 Now everyone who lives on milk (physical law?) is inexperienced with the message about righteousness, because he is an infant.
Heb 5:14 But solid food (spiritual law? tree with solid fruit to eat?) is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.
I think the story of Adam and Eve is told in a way that reveals the plan of God for all humanity, but not everyone knows this. Most see the story as literal or historical (not saying the literal didn't happen), which I believe throws them off. The literal physical sinful Adam (representing sinful humanity) is first, the Second spiritual sinless Adam (humanity IN Christ) is Christ. First the physical, second the spiritual. We will be married to Christ, to become one in Christ. That is why it is said, when a man and woman marry, they become one. That is also why Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the Church. Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was, but disobeyed God anyway, because he didn't want to be alone without Eve knowing she would die for disobeying God. Adam disobeyed and volunteered to die with his wife Eve like Christ obeyed and volunteered to die for His wife, the Church. I think Adam wanted to die for his own selfish reasons (which most of us would have done in his shoes), but Christ wanted to die to give us life, out of love for His wife, the Church.
What I wanna know is, what was sin before Adam and before the law? Was it still sin, but just not being judged? Did it only become sin when Adam disobeyed God knowing it would lead to his death even though Eve disobeyed God first because she was deceived by Satan?
--- Quote from: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM ---How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.
--- End quote ---
Literally speaking, how can Eve be a mother if she'd never had children yet?
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
If she hadn't had children yet, it must mean the mother of all spiritually living. The CLV translates a bit better.
Gen 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Jerusalem? I thought the mother of us all was Eve?
--- Quote from: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM ---If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?
Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?
--- End quote ---
The "earthly things" don't matter, because they will pass away, because they are not important. Earthly things are temporary, like literal Adam. The earthly things Jesus is referring to were the physical miracles He performed, and the teaching of the physical law. They didn't know the physical law was actually spiritual. Jesus said the greater things are the spiritual law and the spiritual miracles. Remember, we are blessed because we haven't seen Jesus physically, but yet we still believe.
Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
The earthly things Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus are the same things He's been trying to tell them for a long time through the prophets.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The earthly physical things (including the physical miracles of Christ) were mere types and shadows of the spiritual reality that is life in Christ. If we believe the story of Adam and Eve as literal, we will stay in the shadow of death and sin. Literal interpretations always causes divisions. If we believe it is spiritual, we step into the light of the life of Christ. The spiritual truth have brought us together here. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, we've all been there and done that. This is not a knock against the OP, I'm already convinced (based on my own studies) in my own mind about whether or not humans were here before Adam and Eve.
Is it important to know when sin entered the world? Or is it more important to know the sin in us? How can sin be removed if God doesn't first show us what our sin is? Do you always know when you sin? Will the ignorant be judged less harshly? Will those that know the truth (surely you will die/wages of sin is death) be judged more harshly if we disobey God like Adam did? The OT makes an example out of the Israelite that constantly disobeyed God. For whom were the Scriptures written for? These are just some questions floating around in my head.
The story of Adam and Eve was the start of many great spiritual things to come, hidden in plain sight. I truly believe the stories in the OT, if taken literally, were meant to throw us off. It did just that for a time didn't it? It continues to do so for many today. So take it easy on those of us that do not understand or agree with a certain literal interpretation in the bible.
I'm so blessed to get a glimpse of the spiritual things to come, it's really my only hope. Also, sorry for the wall of text, didn't expect to write that much.
--- End quote ---
Maybe you should check the verses after 5:13. Paul is not contradicting himself, by one man mankind sinned. The story is symbolic as you have stated yet you don't even believe that there was even ONE ADAM so how can you even believe in the Christ? Should I start saying "people believed God sent two angels to save Lot but this what throws them off, people believed God blessed Abraham with a child but this is what throws them off..."
Are you kidding me with Gen 3:20, you realize it can also mean BECAME as someone stated earlier, but nevertheless Genesis is not written exactly chronologically as it re-iterates what happens during the creation of man and woman in Gen 2 from Gen 1, etc.
So does anyone actually believe the above verses that there was one Adam or do you not actually believe what the scriptures say? All this noise yet constantly dodging the question. You act like I don't understand the flesh profits nothing yet to not even believe the basic things actually happened is astounding to me.
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