Is Jesus Christ Eternal

[Anjel Uriel]

I know The Father brought forth Christ and I always took it as that He gave birth to Him. There was a time when The Father alone existed and He then created Christ by bringing Him forth. Well, I've been seeing old posts of people here and I'm getting kinda confused. Basically, it seems some old posters basically believed in a form of Binitarianism, that is, Christ always existed with God The Father and it's co-eternal and that Christ can't be created because we worship Him. So is there Scriptures that prove Christ is always existed?

My point of view (which I made a whole post about where IndiBob and Dave responded) is this:

God The Father was always existed. He then decided to create a Divine Being that would be His Representative to Humanity, so He did this by begetting a Son and that Son is The Very First Creation of His Father. I saw things along the lines of "How can Christ be be created if He's worshipped, He's begotten of God not created".

But, aren't we also both created and begotten of God? We are created because there's a time we didn't exist but we are begotten because God is our Father and lives in us and whatever someone does to us, they do it to God.

My reason for why Christ can be both created and still worshipped is because He represents His Father perfectly. For example, Christ will judge the world for how they treats us because whatever they do to us is the exact same as doing to Him, because we represent Him. Therefore, even though Christ was created, because He's the very first creation and the begotten Son of God who represents Him perfectly, then He can be worshipped because worship to Christ is the same as worship to His Father.

Let me know what you all think cause I've been wrestling with this for the last week.

[octoberose]

What is the difference between creating  and begotten ? 

[Anjel Uriel]

What is the difference between creating  and begotten ?

Hi octoberose, sorry if this response is too long but from what I've and understand (emphasis on MY understanding, I'm still a fetus in Christ). When someone is created, it means that they've been brought forth into existence. Before, they didn't exist, they only existed, if you can even call it that, as an idea.

For example, God predestined to call us and know The Truth before the foundation of the world. We existed in a sense in God's Mind in the respect that He planned for us to be created, grow up, be deceived by Babylon and then rescue us from the darkness. However, He still didn't create us then because He hadn't started the process of bringing us into existence.

Begotten, from what I've gathered from Scripture when referring to God, is when God regenerates or conceives someone, that is, He takes a person that previously wasn't His child and puts His Spirit inside them and conforms them to His Image, that is, they share the spiritual attributes of their Father, His Kindness, Love, Compassion, Wisdom, etc. It's also the same word used as when someone gives birth. In human terms, you are begotten as in conceived when your father impregnates your mother and you're begotten 9 months later when she gives birth to you, it's the same word.

However, when we look at Scriptures when referring to Christ as the only-begotten Son of God, the Greek word is different to when referring to us being begotten by God. The word used for us is 1080. gennaó and it means to beget, to bring forth, etc. But, the word for Christ is 3439. monogenés and it means properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

So this let us know that let us know that in a way our sonship and Christ's are different. If I'm not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father.

Someone say that means that Christ wasn't created and that it means He always existed as God's Son. For me, from what I've gathered, when Christ is referred as God's Only Son, it doesn't mean that we also aren't sons of God and even Christ calls us brothers and Scripture testify we share the same Father with Christ. But, it means that Jesus is Special, He's The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn. We are God's sons and He's called God's Only Son. For me, this is because we are different in our likeness to God, we reflect God's Character in part but Christ as the firstborn is the only one who reflects God's Character completely, He's the only one who's equal to God in terms of power, character, love, divinity, wisdom, etc. We are flawed representatives of God while He's The Perfect Representative.

So that's why I've gathered and that's why I'm confused because people use this special position of His as saying He wasn't created while my position is that He's the only one who was created (that is was brought into existence) and is currently begotten (conformed to God's Image) in a perfect state.

[Dennis Vogel]

Talking about The Father:

1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 

[ralph]

"But, it means that Jesus is Special, He's The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn."

I'm not so sure about that.  We read here:

Hebrews 5:8
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Now I don't fully understand this, so I am just thinking out loud here.   If Christ was perfect and one with the father as a flesh and blood human being, how could he then "learn obedience".  If he was perfect, what did he have to learn?  Does that not mean that he went through a process of learning "before" he emptied himself and became human? Was he always perfect like his father?  I'm not so sure about this.

[indianabob]

Anjel,
I like your comment copied below with one difference, perhaps in wording.
Father GOD the self existent one created Christ to be GOD's agent through whom GOD would create the rest of the celestial and terrestrial creation. All according to Father God's plan and beginning with the heavenly creation and then the earthly creation, each in the proper order. First the heaven of God and then the material Earth. Gen 1:1
This process was overseen by son God (eloheem H430) or Christ and his "devine" helpers.
Much more to consider but start with the following verses.
= =
► Jesus Christ existed before Abraham (John 8:58),
► He had a glory with the Father before the world
came to be (John 17:5)
► He would ascend to where He was formerly (John
6:62)
► All is created in Him, through Him and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
► He is the Firstborn of every creature (Colossians
1:15)
► Apart from Him not even one thing came into
being which has come into being (John 1:3)
► He made the eons (Hebrews 1:3)
► He emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave,
coming to be in the likeness of humanity (Philippians
2:7)

I know The Father brought forth Christ and I always took it as that He gave birth to Him. There was a time when The Father alone existed and He then created Christ by bringing Him forth. Well, I've been seeing old posts of people here and I'm getting kinda confused. Basically, it seems some old posters basically believed in a form of Binitarianism, that is, Christ always existed with God The Father and it's co-eternal and that Christ can't be created because we worship Him. So is there Scriptures that prove Christ is always existed?

My point of view (which I made a whole post about where IndiBob and Dave responded) is this:

God The Father was always existed. He then decided to create a Divine Being that would be His Representative to Humanity, so He did this by begetting a Son and that Son is The Very First Creation of His Father. I saw things along the lines of "How can Christ be be created if He's worshipped, He's begotten of God not created".

But, aren't we also both created and begotten of God? We are created because there's a time we didn't exist but we are begotten because God is our Father and lives in us and whatever someone does to us, they do it to God.

My reason for why Christ can be both created and still worshipped is because He represents His Father perfectly. For example, Christ will judge the world for how they treats us because whatever they do to us is the exact same as doing to Him, because we represent Him. Therefore, even though Christ was created, because He's the very first creation and the begotten Son of God who represents Him perfectly, then He can be worshipped because worship to Christ is the same as worship to His Father.

Let me know what you all think cause I've been wrestling with this for the last week.

[Dennis Vogel]

Ray has asked how Jesus learned about good and evil? - But we have no idea (yet).

[Anjel Uriel]

Talking about The Father:

1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Hi Dennis, I believed from that Scripture it's saying that only The Father is eternal because He only possess immortality and that Christ is not eternal because he died and while in the flesh He didn't possess immortality (although He does now) and therefore, Christ is not eternal because an eternal being can't die, correct?

[Anjel Uriel]

"But, it means that Jesus is Special, He's The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn."

I'm not so sure about that.  We read here:

Hebrews 5:8
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Now I don't fully understand this, so I am just thinking out loud here.   If Christ was perfect and one with the father as a flesh and blood human being, how could he then "learn obedience".  If he was perfect, what did he have to learn?  Does that not mean that he went through a process of learning "before" he emptied himself and became human? Was he always perfect like his father?  I'm not so sure about this.

Hi Ralph, I was talking about Jesus in His Life while in the flesh. Jesus couldn't have been disobedient or imperfect while a flesh and blood human being because that would be a sin and He never sinned. He already was One with His Father while on Earth, otherwise He wouldn't have been able to claim He was One with The Father (John 10:30), that He was in The Father (John 14:20), that He who sees Him sees The Father (John 14:9) and that He always does the things that please The Father (John 8:29).

But, we don't know if Jesus went through a process of chastisement, regeneration and learning obedience before coming to Earth. I'm inclined to believe, like it seems you suggested and Ray also did, that Jesus before coming to Earth and even before The Creation of the world, became The Son of God by learning obedience, we know He had glory before coming to Earth (John 17:5) but if Glory is something you get after experiencing Good and Evil and  travail, doesn't that mean He went trough that before the foundation of the world?   

So yes, I stand by my statement that Jesus is Special, He's The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn. But, this is all while in the flesh, we don't know for certain if there was a time before the creation and coming to Earth when He wasn't perfect.   

This is what Ray commented about how Jesus learning obedience.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

I think He learned obedience before He was born and reduced down to a man and so on and so forth.  

John 17:5  "And now, Father, glorify Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Now, we don't think about these things. I'm trying to get people to look at these scriptures. Look at the words, believe it and see what it says. "glorify Me with thine own self with the glory which I had..." Glorify mean a worthy name or worthy to be praised or worthy to be extolled or worshipped. Christ said, give Me back this glory which I had with You. Where did He get it?  What did Jesus Christ do, before the foundation of the world, that entitled Him to glory? What? I mean does God just put crowns and accolades on people? What did He do to deserve it, nothing? I'm all powerful. Where did He get the power? Christ tells where He got His power and stuff. He said God gave it to Me, "all power is given to Me of the Father." That's where He got it.  

But now glory is something that you do, that exalts you as someone to be worshipped, adored, and appreciated, for what, you've done. What did He do before the creation of the world? Before He created the world... what did He do? Well I contend that He did something.
  
Somebody ask the other day, 'why is God going through all this ( I could almost hear them say nonsense) to create sons of God? If He created Christ Jesus, why doesn't He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Well why doesn't He just make a whole bunch of Jesus'? We wouldn't have to go through all this pain and suffering, growing old and being sick, hurting and dying? Just create a bunch of Jesus' and then He'll have all the sons He wants.  

We don't know what Jesus went through. How did He become number One? How did He become the Son of God? How did He become glorified? What did He go through?  It says;

Heb 5:8  "though He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered;"  

'Yea, but that was talking about things in His physical life.' Was it? Was it really? We could say that and give examples of it  But is that exclusively what it was talking about? Only in the physical flesh, did He suffer to learn obedience and so on?  

Then Jesus Christ... we are going to see who and what He is. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered, just as a human. How did He become the Son of God? Did God just say, I'm going to create a Son and whoosh...?

A woman sent me an email and said, 'why didn't He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Why do we have to go through all of this to become sons of God... pain, suffering, growing old, disease, losing loved ones, wars, torture, why? If all He had to do was just make a bunch of Jesus' then He would have all the sons He wants.'

[octoberose]

Anjel, I enjoy listening to your thoughts.  Thank you for taking part in the forum.  I've been gone for a while and happy I tuned back in.
I never thought that Ray or any of the moderators here said that Christ was eternal and that qualified him to be worshipped, or that he wasn't eternal and that disqualified him. .  On the contrary, Ray's writings shone a light on the relationship between God and his son that had been in plain view and I always just dismissed any questions I had.  My understanding from all the scripture in bible-truths is that Jesus was given his position by God, he didn't take it from God.  How could he be eternal if he was created by God and if he died on the cross ?  God ( actually, God is his title I believe , not his name) gave his title to his son just as any of you could pass on a title to your child.  Christ was given the spirit of his Father and without that he would not have been able to represent his Father . A Trinity, as Ray taught scripture to say, is a closed system but the family of God is open and will open to all of us.  We will be like Christ when the time comes. 
You said, "So this let us know  that in a way our sonship and Christ's are different. If I'm not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father. ".  I wouldn't put too much store on what orthodoxy says- they tend to get it wrong.   

[Anjel Uriel]

Anjel, I enjoy listening to your thoughts.  Thank you for taking part in the forum.  I've been gone for a while and happy I tuned back in.
I never thought that Ray or any of the moderators here said that Christ was eternal and that qualified him to be worshipped, or that he wasn't eternal and that disqualified him. .  On the contrary, Ray's writings shone a light on the relationship between God and his son that had been in plain view and I always just dismissed any questions I had.  My understanding from all the scripture in bible-truths is that Jesus was given his position by God, he didn't take it from God.  How could he be eternal if he was created by God and if he died on the cross ?  God ( actually, God is his title I believe , not his name) gave his title to his son just as any of you could pass on a title to your child.  Christ was given the spirit of his Father and without that he would not have been able to represent his Father . A Trinity, as Ray taught scripture to say, is a closed system but the family of God is open and will open to all of us.  We will be like Christ when the time comes. 
You said, "So this let us know  that in a way our sonship and Christ's are different. If I'm not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father. ".  I wouldn't put too much store on what orthodoxy says- they tend to get it wrong. 

Hi Octoberose, thanks for listening to my thoughts, that comment actually made me physically smile 😊. I know Ray not any of the mods taught that Christ is eternal, it was just some posts by old members, (from what I've seen, they don't post anymore) that made it seem like they believed in the doctrine of Binitarianism, which in a nutshell is the same as the Trinity but removing the Holy Spirit. God is 2 eternal "persons" to use their terms.

I saw those posts and was like "what are they even talking about" yet I read them and honestly instead of gaining more knowledge, I just got confused. It seems paradoxical to say "Jesus Christ is eternal and was not created by God, only begotten" and then turn around and say "Jesus Christ died crucified and His Father is Greater than Him". Like excuse me? If they're both eternal then The Father can't be greater than Him, for example, my father, is greater then me because I came out/from him and he existed before I existed and even though he has given me authority over my siblings because I'm his firstborn, I still consider him greater because the only reason I can act on his behalf is because he freely gave me this. 

Even though this example is in human terms, I see it as a parable of Christ's relationship with The Father. Like you said, God is a title and He can give that title to whosoever He desires so obviously He would give it to Jesus as He is His Firstborn and in The Scriptures, The Firstborn is given a double portion of father's inheritance because "he's the beginning of his father's strength".

I look at it the same way with Christ, Jesus was created and begotten by God and as The Firstborn and the first creation, He was given The Title and all the privileges of God but will always be subject to The Father because He received everything freely and His Father will always still be His God.

Also you are right, orthodoxy scholarship is a bunch of contradictory statements with big words to sound smart and wise so they can receive praise of men. 

[Musterseed]

Hello Anjel

There is an audio where Ray says that we will not be exactly LIKE Christ.

The word like means SIMILAR. LIKE does not mean the same.

I don't remember which audio it was , I'm sure the Mods can direct you.

Keep up the good work Anjel, I also enjoy your posts.

John 12:46..... I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me
May not remain in darkness.

And eventually all mankind will believe. Praise God.

[indianabob]

The word perfect can mean complete or fulfilled.
So Christ need not have been perfect as a human, but still without sin.
Christ came to earth to serve as a sacrifice for our sins.
Also Christ came to earth, leaving his immortality behind, in order to demonstrate his trust in the Father to restore to him all that he had previously.

= = =
If I might add a dash of seasoning.
Jesus didn't show up on scene perfect.
He was perfected in His suffering.
Our subjection to the grist of good and evil isn't to choose between one or the other.
It's a path of purification between the two that all creation passes through.
Including the Son

Kindly offered, Indy
*  *  *

"But, it means that Jesus is Special, He's The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn."

I'm not so sure about that.  We read here:

Hebrews 5:8
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Now I don't fully understand this, so I am just thinking out loud here.   If Christ was perfect and one with the father as a flesh and blood human being, how could he then "learn obedience".  If he was perfect, what did he have to learn?  Does that not mean that he went through a process of learning "before" he emptied himself and became human? Was he always perfect like his father?  I'm not so sure about this.

Hi Ralph, I was talking about Jesus in His Life while in the flesh. Jesus couldn't have been disobedient or imperfect while a flesh and blood human being because that would be a sin and He never sinned. He already was One with His Father while on Earth, otherwise He wouldn't have been able to claim He was One with The Father (John 10:30), that He was in The Father (John 14:20), that He who sees Him sees The Father (John 14:9) and that He always does the things that please The Father (John 8:29).

But, we don't know if Jesus went through a process of chastisement, regeneration and learning obedience before coming to Earth. I'm inclined to believe, like it seems you suggested and Ray also did, that Jesus before coming to Earth and even before The Creation of the world, became The Son of God by learning obedience, we know He had glory before coming to Earth (John 17:5) but if Glory is something you get after experiencing Good and Evil and  travail, doesn't that mean He went trough that before the foundation of the world?   

So yes, I stand by my statement that Jesus is Special, He's The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn. But, this is all while in the flesh, we don't know for certain if there was a time before the creation and coming to Earth when He wasn't perfect.   

This is what Ray commented about how Jesus learning obedience.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

I think He learned obedience before He was born and reduced down to a man and so on and so forth. 

John 17:5  "And now, Father, glorify Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Now, we don't think about these things. I'm trying to get people to look at these scriptures. Look at the words, believe it and see what it says. "glorify Me with thine own self with the glory which I had..." Glorify mean a worthy name or worthy to be praised or worthy to be extolled or worshipped. Christ said, give Me back this glory which I had with You. Where did He get it?  What did Jesus Christ do, before the foundation of the world, that entitled Him to glory? What? I mean does God just put crowns and accolades on people? What did He do to deserve it, nothing? I'm all powerful. Where did He get the power? Christ tells where He got His power and stuff. He said God gave it to Me, "all power is given to Me of the Father." That's where He got it. 

But now glory is something that you do, that exalts you as someone to be worshipped, adored, and appreciated, for what, you've done. What did He do before the creation of the world? Before He created the world... what did He do? Well I contend that He did something.
 
Somebody ask the other day, 'why is God going through all this ( I could almost hear them say nonsense) to create sons of God? If He created Christ Jesus, why doesn't He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Well why doesn't He just make a whole bunch of Jesus'? We wouldn't have to go through all this pain and suffering, growing old and being sick, hurting and dying? Just create a bunch of Jesus' and then He'll have all the sons He wants. 

We don't know what Jesus went through. How did He become number One? How did He become the Son of God? How did He become glorified? What did He go through?  It says;

Heb 5:8  "though He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered;" 

'Yea, but that was talking about things in His physical life.' Was it? Was it really? We could say that and give examples of it  But is that exclusively what it was talking about? Only in the physical flesh, did He suffer to learn obedience and so on? 

Then Jesus Christ... we are going to see who and what He is. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered, just as a human. How did He become the Son of God? Did God just say, I'm going to create a Son and whoosh...?

A woman sent me an email and said, 'why didn't He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Why do we have to go through all of this to become sons of God... pain, suffering, growing old, disease, losing loved ones, wars, torture, why? If all He had to do was just make a bunch of Jesus' then He would have all the sons He wants.'

[Dennis Vogel]

Also Christ came to earth, leaving his immortality behind, in order to demonstrate his trust in the Father to restore to him all that he had previously.

Did you not see my post talking about the Father Bob?   1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality...

Christ never had immortality.

[indianabob]

Hi Dennis,

Sorry if I was not clear about Christ's situation when he was existing in the heavenlies before the creation of the earth.
If we accept that Christ existed with Father God before matter was created and if we accept that they planned that he lay down his life according to plan before he was conceived in the womb of Mary, then was he not immortal or "undying" prior to the formation of earth and Adam and Eve?

* 1 Tim 6:14-16 seems to refer to Christ Jesus as Lord of Lords rather than the Father GOD almighty.
=
Joh 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 
Joh 10:18  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 


Please correct any misunderstanding of mine. Thank you, Indiana Bob

[octoberose]

Just to add something else to our discussion, on the first page of bible-truths Ray asks, Does God Learn?  So, if God ever took five seconds to learn something, then certainly Christ can learn as he went. The thought above about us being like Christ meaning similar to Him makes sense to me - because even if we have his holiness and wisdom, we will never suffer and die the way he did. That has to have touched him, changed him in a way.  No one is like Christ. I wonder (thought experiment here ) if that means even God looks at His Son with amazement that He fulfilled his calling but God in His Holy above Holy state  will never totally feel what Christ felt as a human on the cross. Christ is our intermediary.  He is truly one of a kind.  And the older I am, the more I am in awe of him.

[Dave in Tenn]

Don't want to delve deep into theology.  The very term (the study of God) makes me wince.  I just want to throw this axiom into this discussion:. There is no Father without children.  And since God is spirit and the words of Christ are spirit, I'm more prone to write it "There is no "father" without "children".   

[Dave in Tenn]

However, when we look at Scriptures when referring to Christ as the only-begotten Son of God, the Greek word is different to when referring to us being begotten by God. The word used for us is 1080. gennaó and it means to beget, to bring forth, etc. But, the word for Christ is 3439. monogenés and it means properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

So this let us know that let us know that in a way our sonship and Christ's are different. If I'm not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father.

It's the "mono" part of this compound word that adds the distinction to the same word.  I take that to mean He is the only begotten...the only one of the begotten kind, if you like.  We're not yet begotten.  Nobody has followed Him completely, even if they themselves were crucified.  Jesus wasn't lying when He said, "You must be born again (born from above)", though my old evangelical friends don't understand it yet.

[Dennis Vogel]

Hi Dennis,

Sorry if I was not clear about Christ's situation when he was existing in the heavenlies before the creation of the earth.
If we accept that Christ existed with Father God before matter was created and if we accept that they planned that he lay down his life according to plan before he was conceived in the womb of Mary, then was he not immortal or "undying" prior to the formation of earth and Adam and Eve?

* 1 Tim 6:14-16 seems to refer to Christ Jesus as Lord of Lords rather than the Father GOD almighty.
=
Joh 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Please correct any misunderstanding of mine. Thank you, Indiana Bob

This is a little confusing Bob.

I admit I was not too clear on this myself but I knew Ray addressed immortality in a talk but I could not remember which one. But then I remembered.

Go here and listen for a minute (starts 19 minutes in): https://youtu.be/gKUYOv1HwiA?t=1160

At a point in the future we are given 'immortality' meaning we will never die from then on.

So Christ never had immortality until after he walked this earth. But not before, else how could he have died? Right?

[Dynamo54]

Interesting topic. Somewhat touches on a question that I have (and I imagine all have) and that is how did The Word/Logos "give up", or shed His immortality ( which He must have had at that time to have been in existence for the billions of years that all of this has taken) and become subject to death as human? We know that there was NO chance that He would not fulfill His goal of being the perfect sacrifice because the Father filled Him with His Spirit and did not allow the fleshly/carnal thoughts and impulses of a human being to rule Him.

So I have wondered since it is apparently possible for a spirit being to voluntarily give that up, and by "that" I mean the ability to exist forever, is it possible that Satan and his hosts could voluntarily give up their existence and die? I believe there is scripture that says that spirit does not die, but this whole thing seems a conundrum.

Of course there is no way to know...but the fact that The Word (Yahweh) DID give up His immortality for 33 years really raises questions.

Like, did The Word (who we know was in fact the Agent of creation) enter into Mary at conception or at birth? Was there nine months where The Word was a fetus not knowing anything in the womb, or was Christ self aware of Himself and His destiny at the moment of His birth?

Mind boggling isn't it?