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orion77:
(Rom 11:30 LITV) For as you then also disobeyed God, but now have obtained mercy by the disobedience of these,
(Rom 11:31 LITV) so also these now have disobeyed, so that they also may obtain mercy by your mercy.
(Rom 11:32 LITV) For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
These verses are amazing to me. We obtain mercy because of their disobedience, and they will obtain mercy by our mercy. Yet we only receive mercy because of their disobedience. It is definetly all of and because of Him, there can be no boasting of one over another. We all, whether under the old or the new are totally reliant upon His mercy, because we all have been disobedient.
God bless,
Gary
hillsbororiver:
Amen Gary,
Excellent post.
Andy_MI:
Hi Joe,
You said:
--- Quote ---I certainly agree and can see (as Kat wrote) that those who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus' resurrection were given the opportunity to receive the "better promise," the New Covenant, but they were still "in the flesh" and were yet imperfect, they were not raised to immortality.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that is my point exactally. On that we agree 100%. No where did I say that they were raised to incorruption and immortality.
Actually they would no longer be under the old testment but under the new. See what I'm saying? So that would not contradict any scripture pertaining to Heb 11.
You said:
--- Quote ---Judas died before Christ did, are you saying Judas was one of those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection? John the Baptist also died before Jesus, that is why it is written that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he, John the Baptist was still under the Old Covenant.
--- End quote ---
All of the saints that were resurrected after Christ were also dead before he died,, weren't they? or am I wrong? I'm not nor did I say that Judas and John the Baptist were among them. I believe I stated that we don't know the names. Now here's what the scripture says about John the Baptist.
Mat 11:11 CLV
(11) "Verily, I am saying to you, Not among those born of women has there been roused a greater than John the baptist. Yet he who is smaller, in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
This verse could indeed conclude that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection but does it conclude that his name is not written in the book of life and therefore is cast into the lake of fire along with the unbelievers?? That's my question concerning the Old testament saints.
Now Judas is another story. Was he a saint? Do we know. The scripture says that Jesus chose the twelve and one of them was a devil.
Joh 6:70-71 KJVR
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
But it also says about Judas:
Mat 27:3-4 KJVR
(3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
(4) Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
So in your statement:
--- Quote ---No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.
--- End quote ---
My question is ,,, how can we know for sure that Judas' name is not written in the book of life? Only those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:12-15 KJVR
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm saying that we cannot and should not be sitting in judgement over him at this time. We are not in that position to do so.
He may very well end up in the lake of fire,, I don't know and I don't think that can be proven. He may end up getting anywhere from 1 to 40 stripes rather that given the portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:46-48 KJVR
(46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
(47) And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
(48) But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
God is the righteous judge and he gives every man acording to His righteous judgement. I don't see every receiving the exact same judgement at the second resurrection, but according to the things that are written in the books, and according to our deeds done in our flesh.
Thanks Joe for this discussion. I'm enjoying this and I hope you don't think that I'm arguing with you. I have nothing but love and respect for you my brother.
Peace,
Andy
Kat:
Hi Andy,
You are right only those whose name is not in the book of life, will go to the lake of fire.
--- Quote ---Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.
--- End quote ---
But is there scripture that may give us the answer about Judas in particular?
Mat 26:24 The Son of Man goes, as it has been written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
It is pretty clear to whom these verses are referring to, Judas.
'That the Scripture might be fulfilled.'
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Andy_MI:
--- Quote from: Kat on October 26, 2006, 02:00:36 PM ---Hi Andy,
You are right only those whose name is not in the book of life, will go to the lake of fire.
--- Quote ---Do you know that for a fact? Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.
--- End quote ---
But is there scripture that may give us the answer about Judas in particular?
Mat 26:24 The Son of Man goes, as it has been written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
It is pretty clear to whom these verses are referring to, Judas.
'That the Scripture might be fulfilled.'
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
God bless you Kat! You always come up with the right things to say. You're such a blessing to this fellowship.
I leave all judgement to the Righteous Judge.
Joh 5:22 KJVR
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Peace,
Andy
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