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1 Cor 2:2

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hillsbororiver:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on November 12, 2006, 09:49:11 AM ---
I feel jarred to the bone as I recall hearing and singing in with the blind so called praise and worship songs that say.....We...WE WE...give You glory!  What glory can a smelly rag give to a royal purple robe wafted in the fragrance of God, distinguished by His Holy blood splashed from His Wounds and carried  into the royal purple treads of such a mantle upon the Glorious Shoulders of our King?.............................................


--- End quote ---

Good morning Arcturus,

Although there is some merit in what you say here, especially when applied to those still carnal and unrepentant but His elect have been purified by faith in His blood and are no longer seen by God as being in filthy rags.

Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You are absolutely on the mark when you say our own righteousness is as filthy rags but once His Spirit is within us the Father sees us through the blood of His Son, blameless.


Phi 3:6  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phi 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

1Jo 1:7  But1161 if we walk4043 in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


 



 

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Joe


I am getting it.....am getting it....but... not....not ...quite there yet!..I want it GET IT!

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I have come out of Mystery Babylon.  Can I ....may I....believe.... I...me...Arcturus.....has come out of great tribulation too? ...the tribulation that is coming that is.....If so then although MY trials and tribulations be DAILY....I AM as a believer....PROTECTED by God Himself and I will be kept from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world. Rev 3 : 10-11   


............His elect have been purified by faith in His blood and are no longer seen by God as being in filthy rags......

....His elect....have been....HAVE BEEN....Joe is this done or is it future....?... For me I really truly feel that I am not purified yet >:(  I am still washing....


Phi 3:9  And be found in him,....[/color]

He is with me. I recieve gifts from Him......But I am not yet found....the first resurection has not happend for me yet. He is still coming.....When He comes if I am raised up in the first Resurection then I will be found in Him. If not, I  will be with King David and Abraham lining up for the White Throne....not found in Him but yet outside. I do not want to be outside! I do not know if I am inside out right now :-\  All I know is that He knows and I don't ???

Phi 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ,

....not having my own righteousness....but that.....through the faith OF Christ....

Not my faith being sufficient but His in which I hope....will elect me to be raised in the first resurrection....By His election.... :o

I totally hear you Joe about knowing my election and calliing...but I truly feel it is not a done, completed deal yet and can only be once Jesus seals it and finishes it....and this for me is not now but ahead....my prize....for which I run.....

Do you see that I am on the wrong track?.....I am addressing you in the relative sence. I know and percieve that you neither see
me in a right or wrong way but in a blameless one as does the Father. I just feel it is wrong in an absolute way, to think or assurme or presume that anyone is Elect ahead of Christ to whom this unveiling is given supremely to Him at a time appointed by God alone of which even Christ does not know the time or day.

I think it is foolish to think any are Elected or to make anyone think they are the Elect, without having eyes to see the heart of man as Christ does. I can not see your heart Joe. In the White Throne Judgement all aims, motives and works will be revealed.
Rev 20 : 13.....Am I out of line here Joe....If so I sincerely appologise...SINCERELY....!...and I do not want to bring ANY division. I believe we are all here in this Forum, as His children and that He is leading us and tendering us as a Shepherd with His lambs.......Joe I do not mean any disrespect at all.....I do not mean any offence at all.........

I have tried to answer your post that challenges me and my responce I hope you see is  in a spirit of open candid straight talk.  I am not at a point where I  believe that I can know who Christ has appointed as His elect, me included. Where I am now is that  I have  hope. I want to hear His words "Well done " to me Joe. I truly do!  I believe the faith is HIS alone that can make it happen. Mine is the hope....not doubting the power of His faith....but hoping that He will choose me and cause me to be faithful to Him alone........................As this happens the consequence is His love is shed abroard in our hearts and spills over into the love we bear for one another.....

With reverance Joe

Arcturus....seeing only in part.....

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Joe

Just to clarify....I wrote...I just feel it is wrong in an absolute way, to think or assurme or presume that anyone is Elect ahead of Christ to whom this unveiling is given supremely to Him at a time appointed by God alone of which even Christ does not know the time or day.  What I mean to say here is, I think it is an error to assume or presume that anyone is Elect ahead of Christ.....I mean ahead of Christs unveiling His Elect.....not ahead of Christ per se.....Of course I do know that no one....certainly NO ONE HERE thinks or presumes such nonsence!

Also Joe, I appologize...please forgive me....I said ... I know and percieve that you neither see
me in a right or wrong way but in a blameless one as does the Father. I should not say I KNOW and PERCIEVE that YOU....ANYTHING  I do not know or percieve you Joe...only God does.....I am so sorry Joe.....Please forgive me all of you who have read this. It is arrogance ...... All I have to go on is what you say to me or write to me and in that only I can respond..........and question and ask and hopefully learn.......


Arcturus....

hillsbororiver:
Hello Arcturus,

I see no need of apology, these types of discussions are iron sharpening iron.

We are admonished to "run the race" seeking the prize at the finish line, do we not run this race with the hope and faith that we will win? Do we run with a blase' defeatist attitude that pardons and excuses a lackluster (read lukewarm) ready made justification for failure?

Of course I do not know for sure whether or not I have been chosen by Him to be of the elect, none of us do, but does that mean that I should not hope and pray for it, that it is prideful to consider that it is possible? Is it sinful or presumptuous to follow the admonishments to the elect?

Arcturus, my original response was in regard to our ability and justification in giving Him (heartfelt) praise, here is what is written;

Heb 13:15  By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
 
Heb 13:16  But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Any praise or any good thing at all comes not from me or anyone but through our Lord and Saviour, the Father sees this through the blood of Him who has given us salvation, anything that is worthwhile eminates from Him who is within us.

1Pe 4:10  As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
 
1Pe 4:11  If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Joe


To respond to your post to me I have had to slave for the answer!........ :D

1 Peter 4:11….let him speak as the oracles of God….

You write…”We are admonished to “run the race” seeking the prize at the finish line….

Reply:

Firstly, I see this prize in one of two ways …..I do not assume to know which way you see this prize or which way anyone of us may see it but there are two ways in which this prize may be seen. Just like there are one of two ways we are judged…now or White Throne. The scriptures do not contradict. Regarding the prize I see it also in one of these two ways, a or b. First:

a)   Matt 20 : 21 –28  And He asked her, What do you wish? She answered Him, Give orders that these two sons of mine (James and John) may sit, one at Your right hand and one at Your left in Your kingdom.  22. Do you NOT REALIZE what you are asking? ARE YOU ABLE to drink the cup that I am about to drink and to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptised? They answered, We are able…..(sounds to me like when Peter told Jesus He would never deny Him!)
He said to them, You will drink My cup BUT seats at My right and at My left are not Mine to give, but they are for those for whom they have been ordained and prepared by My Father.

These words were spoken before Jesus drank the cup that He anguished sorely over in the Garden of Gethsemane…..that same cup that the Mother of James and John blithely agreed to drink and was granted without obtaining any assurance of getting the status, rank and position for her sons next to Christ. Drinking the same cup as Christ does not guarantee the same status as Christ, or even the ones next to Him!

I notice what Jesus said to the remaining 10 disciples who were indignant after hearing of this ambition and aspiration to be made high, separate and distinctly above them and herein is the other way to “run the race”.

b)   Jesus said…You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men hold them in subjection tyrannizing over them. 26. NOT SO SHALL IT BE AMONG YOU….whoever wishes to be GREAT AMONG YOU must be your servant. 27. Whoever wishes to be FIRST AMONG YOU must be your slave. 28 JUST AS the Son of Man came to serve and give His life.

Is the prize to be great and first? Then the race is to serve and be a slave.

Is the prize to sit on the left or right of Christ? Then the runner is a fool who has not a clue or the desire to either serve or be a slave.

You ask…”do we not run this race with the hope and faith that we will win?”Reply……Yes. If we run as fools, ambitious to win. I find only two places in my Concordance where win is mentioned.  2 Chr 32 : 1  After these things, and the establishment thereof, Sennacherib king of Assyria came, and entered into Judah, and encamped against the fenced cities, and thought to win them for himself.” ( Ie Ambition like the Mother of James and John. )With the king of Assyria note; vs 8 “With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord our God to help us, and to fight our battles.”

Compare Paul…what he, NOT how he….WHAT he proposes to “win”….(HOW requires self following laws. WHAT requires focus, eyes set on Christ alone. Paul had his eyes set on Christ and Christ alone)

Phil 3 : 8  Yes, furthermore, I count everything as loss compared to the possession of the priceless privilege, the overwhelming preciousness, the surpassing worth, and supreme advantage of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord and of progressively becoming more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him (…the race set before us….becoming acquainted…becoming as and like Christ as a servant and a slave….)of perceiving and recognizing and understanding Him more fully and clearly (…the prize…perceiving, recognizing and understanding Him)…For His sake I have lost everything and consider it all to be mere rubbish, refuse, dregs, in order that I may win, gain Christ. 9 And that I may actually be found and known as in Him, not having any, self-achieved (King of Assyria victory)….righteousness that can be called my own based on my obedience to the law’s demands (1050 commands in the NT for Christians to obey!) ritualistic uprightness and supposed right standing with God thus acquired) but possessing that genuine righteousness, which comes through faith of Christ, the truly right standing with Gold, which comes from God by faith.

 If we run as slaves and we serve by laying down our ambitions, then we are great and first.

You ask…”Do we run with a blasé defeatist attitude that pardons and excuses a lacklustre (read lukewarm) ready made justification for failure?

Reply…Yes. If we run as fools.
      No, if we run as servants and slaves among one another as siblings and then we are great and first and made so only by God.

You write…”Of course I do not know for sure whether or not I have been chosen by Him to be of the elect, non of us do….
Reply…That was my point. The whole point and nothing but the point. God  ordains and prepares. Jesus knows His sheep and His sheep know and follow His voice. We do not know if we are His elect. We know only His voice.

You ask…”…does that mean that I should not hope and pray for it…
Reply…No…no….NO. Jesus says it this way…Luke 21 : 36..Keep awake then and watch AT ALL TIMES be discrete, attentive, and ready, PRAYING that you may have the full strength and ability ..(John and James mother blithely said they had the ability to drink the cup Jesus shed blood in anguish to drink!)…Praying that you may have the full strength and ability to be accounted worthy to escape a) all the things coming on the world and b) to STAND in the presence of the Son of Man. We should pray for the means, not the goal, the strength not the result of the strength, the endurance not the object of that endurance, the love not the possession of that love that is Christ…not to possess Christ but to be Christ-like with joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self control to be strong and to have therefore this strength and ability…that is the goal that conceals the prize itself that will result in us being counted worthy to stand in the presence of Christ once fully conformed into HIS IMAGE. The result is Christ…..

Luke 10 : 19,20  Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and physical and mental strength and ability over all the power that the enemy possesses; and nothing shall in any way harm you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, …….but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven…. (How….Who? Those who serve and slave)

You ask…”Is it  sinful or presumptuous to follow the admonishments to the elect?
Reply…There are 1050 commands in the NT for Christians to obey. I can only list 800 because many are repetitions. Is it sinful or presumptuous to follow the admonishments you ask….I believe it is sinful, presumptuous and foolish to think we are able to. …and Yes even sinful and presumptuous  if we are motivated by Law through a James John or Mother’s ambition to try! The way to take up our cross and follow is… serve and slave…..then only are we great and first.  Outside of faith and the desire to become acquainted, to recognise and understand and  imitate Christ, all is sin, pride and self serving…is refuse as Paul wrote in Phil 3 : 8…and he said that about EVERYTHING.

Is it sinful or presumptuous to follow the admonishments to the elect? you ask…..I believe NO…. it is refuse, rubbish to follow admonishments to the elect. It is a consequence that you will follow the admonishments to the elect if your goal is to imitate Christ…to desire to become acquainted and to recognise and understand HIM.  Every thing else is refuse. You will follow the ten commandments if you love the Lord your God with all your heart. If the Lord is your Shepherd then you will not want. If the Lord is your Shepherd then you will lie down in green pastures. If the Lord is your Shepherd then you will be beside the still waters, He will restore your soul etc….The Lord is our Shepherd and He is our King….. we who serve and slave. His face is set against the proud of heart………….Does that make Jesus Christ two faced? No! Jesus planted the tree of life. Of that tree we are to know recognize and acquaint ourselves with knowing and recognising that  there is God and Mammon….that there are two Judgments…that there is good and evil…. a correct way and an incorrect way….that there is righteousness and unrighteousness. That it is Gods will that we be righteous and His plan that we come to know recognise and understand the difference. That we are made in His image to know and be made able, by God,   to distinguish between good and evil………………….

I am in Chorus with you as you say…”Any praise or any good thing at all comes not from me or any one but through our Lord and Saviour….anything that is worthwhile emanates from Him who is within us…..” Amen to that!

In line with 1 Peter 4 :10….as I have received the gift to write this, and it is a gift and privilege to (oracle…..3051 neut of 3052 and utterance (Of God); - oracle.  3052 from 3056; fluent, ie an orator; - eloquent. 3056 log-os; from 3004 something said  including the thought, by impl. A topic, subject of discourse, also reasoning,{ the mental faculty} or motive; by extens. A computation; spec.( With the art. In John) the Divine Expression. (ie Christ);- account, cause, communication, x concerning, doctrine, fame, x have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason +  reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, x speaker, speech; talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

So Joe, ….. not as iron against iron…..  but rather as one to another…as  good stewards of the manifold grace of God…..Peace to you

Arcturus….

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