> General Discussions
Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Layla
Your comment : this thread is not about the rightful place for a man and a woman in the flesh, but about whether woman should teach.
and your statement to me : I think you are misunderstanding what Doug has written.
and your "assurance" that : I do test the spirit behind every teaching and I would never offer anything here that has not been tested.
My responce.......
I will comment on this teaching through the transcript with my comments in blue.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence
Greetings To All
The problem of whether a woman should or should not teach or hold a position that reflects anything other than being a silent submissive member is looked upon differently amongst the many different denominations.
Irrelevant. This opening comment camouflages the content of the following teaching by obscuring the fact that the scripture does not lie. Gods word is not made less or more true based on or subject to popularity vote or different interpretations or the many different denominations.
(Like wearing a hat) Within the scriptures we have several women used of God to further His Will on earth.
Incorrect. Here the author mixes up the WILL of God with the PLAN of God.Case in point : Esther. God did not have to use Esther, or the burning bush or a talking donkey to further His WILL on earth. Esther, the burning bush and the donkey were all part of Gods PLAN. God doesn’t use humans, bushes or donkeys to get to His Will. He causes circumstances, He authors circumstances to create His Plan and then humans bushes and donkeys live out that plan. In a e-mail response by Ray FREE WILL he responds, quote “ distinguish between God’s “will”….and God’s “plan” to achieve His “Will”. God’s Will…live righteously….His plan….first live Unrighteously….to be humbled in our utter inability to do God’s perfect will…..repent of our wickedness. Understand….we sin from our hearts, so it is only right and good that we should be punished….. and…. converted into the Image of God’s Son.”
In the OT had Queen Esther not pleaded with the King to reverse his decision
NO….no….no….had Queen Esther not been CAUSED BY GOD to plead with the King….and thereafter had God not CAUSED the King to reverse his decision….is more like it. That the plan of God was written for a woman is secondary to the fact that God wrote and caused His Plan to include both men and women that God wrote from start to finish.
based on the testimony of an evil man, the entire Jewish nation under his command would have put to death. Here Doug puts Queen Esther on the pedestal and not God….because the difference between Gods will and Gods plan is not discerned. This error is what happens when man tries to idolise men or women above God. This error happens when human understanding over looks Gods Sovereignty. This error manifests when human heroes and heroines are given supremacy above Gods Sovereign place
Obviously in this instance the voice of a woman was far better than the words of a man…
.....Since when is the voice of a woman far better than the words of a man?….Is it..…since the man did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Where? Where does scripture say this? Show me one place! Give me the second witness to this man made heresy. Okay okay I hear you….What about Abigail then?…..Again NO…..no. The Scripture is not literal. Abigail submitted to the King. As a result she saved her husband who later died .Does this mean women are superior to men if the man “did not represent God’s will for His chosen people”…Oh…so then women are superior to all Men save Jesus Christ by implication and this is not scritural it is heresy. . Which man or woman REPRESENTS God’s will? There is one Mediator and that is Christ. The birth, life, death and resurrection were all part of God’s Plan in which Jesus Christ was always in Gods Will(sinless and never deviating once from right standing with God) as God’s plan came to pass. God uses HIS PLAN to achieve HIS WILL. This is no less true for Jesus as it is for us. The men and women of Scripture all illustrate God’s plan. [/color]
who did not represent God’s Will for His chosen people. Who is to say that a woman today should not speak for the Will of God
what heresy is this? Which woman can speak for the Will of God? Oh yes, I know. Jezebel and the Harlot, Mystery Babylon!…when a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will? When a man speaks and teaches against God’s Will then he is still in God’s plan. Pharaoh resisted God’s will. That was God’s plan.
However I believe in strict adherence to the laws for determining truth
TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD"None of the wicked shall understand; but the Wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10) TRUTH NUMBER 6[A] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16). "…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine. Unfortunately, the Church does not follow this truth of God in establishing doctrine. Truth be known, orthodoxy has not even one witness to support any of their doctrines!
and when I look for a second witness that states that a “woman should not teach” I find some problems finding a second witness. Any wonder that problems are encountered? When we look for another scripture that speaks against a woman teaching we find one but it is directed against a woman who is evil and not qualified to teach.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
This verse certainly does nothing to keep a good woman from teaching..
the deduction here is that a “good” woman can teach a man who is not in the Will of God? Where does scripture say this? Show me…..…..
so we need to look further. In the 5th chapter of 1st Timothy we find a lot said about woman in the church not being considered worthy of ministering the things of God. However once again we see that these unqualified woman have grown weak in their faith and “some have already turned aside after Satan”. Once again we are still lacking a reason for a woman of God to be denied the right to teach God’s Word
No. Wrong again. What is lacking is not a reason but the authority and a scripture that gives women rights to usurp man as head and authority just as Christ is Head of His Church. There is no such scripture that says woman has the right to supplant men and become their authority or to teach men. Women can be messengers. John 4 : 16 Jesus said to her “Go, call your husband and come back here.” Mark 16 : 5 and going into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting there on the right side, clothed in a long, stately, sweeping robe of white, and they were utterly amazed and struck with terror. And he said to them…..7 Go your way, tell the disciples and Peter that He goes before you into Galilee. 8. …and they went and said nothing about it to anyone including to any man, for they were afraid. Now Jesus having risen….appeared first to Mary Magdalene…..10. She went and reported it.
I see no teaching in these scriptures that licence woman to lead or teach men. Christ is always the Head as is man the head of the woman.
In 1st Tim 2 there is a reference in verse 13 to Eve who bowed in subjection to Satan just as in the 5th chapter so I question the quality of this woman that is to be silent rather than her gender. Eve is not the woman who represents the church and who is at enmity (an enemy) with Satan. Eve was not at enmity with Satan because she was in compliance with him and was part of the transgression.
Then there is another scripture to consider (amongst others) before one states that a woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures because of her gender. Woman is not qualified to teach the scriptures to men not because of her gender but because of Gods order.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the above verse state there is no difference between a man and a woman in Christ,….what does IN CHRIST mean to Doug….here is the twist…. it also helps to nullify Eph 5: 24 as a reason not to permit women to preach…there it is. In Christ for Doug means helping to nullify the scripture that does not licence or permit women to preach!
because it essentially says the same thing.
So in conclusion there are no two witnesses that say a woman who is qualified should not teach,…
this is unscriptural nonsense!
consequently a woman cannot lawfully be denied the pulpit …
.Lawfully? Denied? Now are we to conclude that God has Unlawfully Denied women the right to teach men. Are we to agree with this outrageous conclusion that by implication puts God before the Grand Jury of a man made legal system of evaluation of Gods supreme Sovereignty and WILL. Contrary to one thinking that there are two lawful witnesses that deny woman the right to teach, the scriptures show there is no difference between a man or a woman ….Where? WHERE do the scriptures SHOW there is no difference between a man or a woman….Oh in Christ….Here in lies the error. In Christ does not mean as Christ it means like Christ, not metamorphosised into a genderless thing that then looses identity as a brother or sister, Son or Daughter of God. as they are both of Him…Yes. True. Both male and female we are made and considered equal. ….Yes….equal for we share an inheritance equally, but we are NOT the same. One is the weaker vessel and one is the head over the other as Christ is Head over His Church.
There is one big however though. As Paul says some things may be lawful but are not expedient to pursue and this may apply here in certain circumstances.
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
If a woman preaching is a problem because she is a woman, then she should either preach somewhere else or refrain from doing so where she is. Plus she had might as well go somewhere where she will be appreciated.
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
Now all of the above proves that there is no scriptural mandate against woman teaching or holding positions of authority in the church
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
because of the lack of witnesses in the scriptures. However since on the surface (and for the unlearned) there appears to be so, we need to consider why this is so. Once again I urge you to look deeper and consider the spirit/ soul implication that is at the heart of the message seemingly indicating that woman should be forbidden to teach.
This is a false cunning argument. 2 Peter 3 : 16 …there are come things that are difficult to understand which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and interpret the rest of the Scriptures. 17. Let me warn you therefore, beloved (Layla) that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked persons and fall from your own present firm condition, your own steadfastness of mind. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen…..
God is Spirit. His word is spirit and we need to stop thinking in the natural if we are to move forward in our understanding. With all the spiritual references in the Bible it amazes me that “qualified teachers” look for everything in the natural. Man is a spirit (aka image of God) within an earth suit and when he is given a soul (spiritual body) in the likeness of God, then God’s purpose for His Creation will be complete and the “Mystery of Godliness” will have been fulfilled within man.
Peace and Blessings
Doug.
athisfeet:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on November 16, 2006, 10:03:54 PM ---Hi Rocky,
Long time no see, how have you been? It is good to see you here.
In regard to what you wrote above;
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
We are only conceived in the spirit as of now, our minds are to put away carnal, fleshly thoughts but we are not transformed into true spiritual beings yet, can any of us here or do you know anyone who fits this description?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We are earnestly awaiting our transformation, we are not there until the resurrection.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Joe,
I'm not sure what you are saying here. ???
That entire passage is about being born of the spirit, being born again. Do you think that Jesus was saying that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in this body of flesh? That we must first die PHYSICALLY?
Don't we either walk in the flesh OR walk in the spirit?
Here are some of the preceding verses in that chapter. Is Jesus telling Nicodemus about something that is NOT going to happen until after he dies physically? It seems very clear to me that Nicodemus understood that this must happen while in the flesh. Why else would he have wondered about it? Why would he have asked about re-entering the womb of our mothers? And if he was just misunderstanding what Jesus was saying then why didn't Jesus correct him by simply telling that this would NOT be accomplished while in the flesh?
Joh 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit[/b].
If you are saying that we must DIE PHYSICALLY in order to be born again (of the spirit) then you are saying that none of us can see the kingdom of God, for we MUST be BORN AGAIN in order to see the kingdom of God.
You seem to believe that that last verse is talking about us (physically). Am I misunderstanding?
To me, it tells us HOW we are "born again" (BY THE SPIRIT).
I don't think the translator worded it right or clearly enough.
Look at the words:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so [houtōin; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows)] is [esti; is] every one [pas; all, any, every, the whole] that is born [gennaō; to procreate] of the Spirit.
It seems clear to me that this verse is talking about the spirit and HOW we are born again… not the condition that we are in physically (as in invisible spirits) when we are born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell when it cometh, and whither it goeth: IN THIS WAY is everyone BORN OF THE SPIRIT.
It is BY THE SPIRIT that we are "born again" or "born of the spirit".
Are you are saying that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in the flesh? And is that what Ray teaches and believes?
That seems very foreign to me and to what Jesus was saying (as I understand it) and to what the scriptures tell us about the flesh vs the spirit and the inner man vs the outer man, etc. My goodness, that just does not sit right with my spirit or with how I understand the word of God.
Sin is condemned in the flesh; as he is so are we IN THIS WORLD; His spirit quickens our MORTAL bodies; etc, etc, etc. Christ came to give us LIFE. The ONLY way we can have that LIFE is to be baptized into his DEATH (NOW) and be "born again" of the spirit.
So to say that we are not born again or born of the spirit while in this flesh, that that doesn’t happen until after we die, seems to go completely against the word of God and the entire POINT that Christ was making, not to mention the words of Paul and the other disciples.
As Rocky said (and as I also understand it), we are NOT in the flesh but in the spirit IF the spirit of God dwells in us; those "in the flesh" CANNOT PLEASE GOD. So are you sure you want to insist that we ARE "still in the flesh" just because we still have this body of death (as Paul called it)? Is that hearing what the SPIRIT is saying to those who are WALKING IN THE SPIRIT?
Rom 8:1-15 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (so are we still in the flesh?) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (no! not if the spirit of God dwells in us. Isn't that what this says?) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
We cannot cry ABBA, FATHER except through the SPIRIT of the SON that is IN US. Are you saying that we cannot and do not do that while in the flesh?
We must pass from death unto life, right? Do we not do that until after we die? That cannot be.
But so to not get too far off topic, since the topic is women and teaching... how might this (being in the flesh vs in the spirit) relate to what Paul said about husbands and wives (not simply men and women):
Paul very clearly said that he was talking about Christ and the church (not husbands and wives after the flesh), didn't he?
Eph 5:32-33 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband[/u].
Paul was not addressing men and women after the flesh; if he was, then who is the single woman or the widowed woman "subject" to?
Paul was using the marriage relationship that was established by God in the beginning to show us THE SPIRITUAL TRUTH BEHIND IT. Adam (male) was formed FIRST, THEN Eve (female - from Adam) and then they were JOINED TOGETHER and made ONE FLESH.
CHRIST FIRST, THEN the CHURCH; the HEAD FIRST, THEN the BODY.
Those who are still "in the flesh", minding the things of the flesh may have only been able to hear what Paul was saying in terms of the FLESH (applying it to husbands and wives after the flesh), but aren't we supposed to be able to discern what the SPIRIT of the Word is? Christ said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
IF the SPIRIT of God dwells IN US and we are born "of the spirit"... then are we still "in the flesh"? (Paul says no.) Are we still "male and female" or are we ONE FLESH?
Is God a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS? Or is man?
Are we (even though male and female after the flesh) not joined together as ONE FLESH; ONE BODY with ONE HEAD through the SPIRIT?
So are we now to look at these verses after the flesh (husbands and wives)? rather than after the spirit (Christ and the church)? To say that we are "still in the flesh"?
I pray (God willing) I am NOT still in the flesh to mind the things of the flesh.
If the spirit of God dwells IN ME, then it is not "me" (whether I be male or female after the flesh) who speaks but it is the WORD OF GOD that is IN ME that speaks; it is the SON doing THE WILL OF THE FATHER who is SPEAKING (AND DOING).
Even MEN are the BRIDE (female) of Christ and WOMEN are still SONS (male) of God.
Can we not see that MEN AND WOMEN (after the flesh) fall into BOTH of these categories?
I will be extremely shocked if you tell me that neither you nor Ray (nor most of those here) believes that we are born again until after we die. I have been readling here for a long time and I never realized that to be the case, if it is.
athisfeet
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Athisfeet
Please excuse and forgive me jumping in ahead here Joe.....Africa time :D
Athisfeet, Joe wrote in a thread discussion : in the world as men and woman, in the church as brothers and sisters, in His Kingdom as Sons and Daughters. Each step closer, as we grow in our One on one journey with Him together.
I know you have addressed your post to Joe.....I only hope this insight he has already shared helps clear up things a little before Joe replys to you too.
We either do not understand, or we do not believe or we do not agree. We need to know where we stand. And we can only know with God's help. We can only come out of not understanding, disbelief and disagreement by God dragging us away from what we have learnt in Mystery Babylon.
Mercy Grace and unmerited favour to you
Arcturus :)
athisfeet:
Arcturus,
I don’t think I understand what you are saying. I am assuming that you are addressing being “born again”? (If not, then please correct me.)
What do you understand Joe to be saying in that quote, that we are not “sons and daughters” now? We are only “brothers and sisters”?
How is that supported scripturally?
What does “in His kingdom” mean to you? Is that something that doesn’t happen until after we die physically? Are we not “in His kingdom” until then? How does that relate to the fact that the kingdom of God is within?
Jesus said that we MUST BE “born again” in order to see the kingdom of God. What I gathered was that Joe was saying that we are NOT YET “born again” (or “born of the spirit”) and we WILL NEVER BE (while in the flesh) because we are not like the wind (invisible, coming and going, etc).
If that is what he is saying and that is in alignment with what is taught by Ray then what does that mean? That we cannot “see” the kingdom of God? And that we won’t be able to see the kingdom of God until after we die? Because that is when we are "born again"?
I have a really hard time believing that that is what Jesus meant by being “born again”, of being “born of the spirit”.
Aren’t we “born of the spirit” BY THE SPIRIT that dwells IN US?
How does saying that we aren't born again while in the flesh line up with what Peter said about being “born again”?
1Pe 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Was Peter talking about something that happens after we physically die? It is my understanding that Peter is saying that if we love one another with a pure heart, we ARE “born again”. Born of the spirit, by the word of God (that incorruptible seed) that is in us? Do you understand these verses differently?
I’m sorry, but I must still be missing something here because I don’t see how we wait until after we die (physically) to be born again. Neither do I see that that is how Jesus, Peter or Paul (or anyone else) applied those words.
If we are not NOW “sons” of God then how is it that “as he is so are we IN THIS WORLD”. How does his spirit quicken our MORTAL BODIES if we are not “quickened” while IN THEM? If Paul said: “Ye are NOT IN THE FLESH if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you”, then are we “still in the flesh”? At the very same time he also said that “THOSE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD”.
I understand what it means to be carnally MINDED or spiritually MINDED, but that doesn’t address everything that Paul said and what other verses of scripture tell us and what I quoted above from Peter that says that we ARE “born again” (even now).
Christ said that his words are to SPIRITUALLY discerned. Doesn’t that include Paul’s words and Peter’s (etc)?
If those "in the flesh" cannot please God then we say “we are no longer in the flesh but in the spirit" (mentally), but when it comes to being “born again” or “born of the spirit” we say that we can't be (yet) because we are "still in the flesh" (physically) and not like the wind??
What about what Peter said then? Why are we applying the word differently under different circumstances? That doesn't seem consistent (or right) to me.
If Christ’s words are SPIRIT and they are to be SPIRITUALLY discerned then why would we ever look at them in relation to the (physical) flesh?
Physically we are still in the flesh, yes. What does that mean if “the flesh profits nothing”? Spiritually speaking, we are NOT in the flesh… so, again, please help me understand why we are to be looking at the flesh to be applying these words NATURALLY instead of SPIRITUALLY?
Is that “rightly dividing” the word?
And if Paul said that he was speaking about Christ and the church (in talking about wives being subject to their husbands) then why do WE want to apply those words NATURALLY to “husbands and wives” after the flesh?
I’m not trying to argue; I’m just trying to understand. In ALL that I have read of Ray’s I never understood him to say that we are not born again until after we physically die. So if that is what he believes then that is new information to me. I either missed it or misunderstood what he was saying or meaning. But I don’t recall ever reading anything that said that.
To say that we are not "born again" until after we physically die goes against what I believe and what I believe Jesus was telling Nicodemus and against what Peter said (as I understand it) and what Paul taught (again, as I understand it).
This is not something that I learned "in Babylon". I never even understood or used the term "born again" when I was still going to "church".
I am saying that it was always my understanding that Ray taught that we are "born again" BY THE SPIRIT, by CHRIST IN YOU. So if that is not so, then I misunderstood some of what Ray is teaching. But that being said doesn't change my mind. As it still seems perfectly clear to me that what I THOUGHT Ray believed and was teaching is the "truth" (so far as it has been given to me by God). I believe that we are "born of the spirit" BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN US and that this happens while we are "still in the flesh" (naturally speaking)... based on all of the scriptures that I posted and referenced (and many many more)
But I do appreciate your reply. :D
athisfeet
Kat:
Hi athisfeet,
I found this in Ray's emails.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resurrection
« on: September 12, 2006, 11:12:27 AM »
> Hi Ray, quick question. Im struggling with the first resurrection. I hear so
> many conflicting ideas. Is it a spiritual resurrection, as in to be born again,
> Or is it only when Christ returns.
>
> Wesley
Dear Wesley:
When all else fails read and believe the Scriptures:
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:42-45)
When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."
Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above." In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born." Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom: "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
I covered this in our Mobile Bible Conference last week. You should have been there.
God be with you,
Ray
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find the audio for the Mobile Bible Conference at 'Introductions and Announcements'.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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