> General Discussions
OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
hillsbororiver:
Bobby,
I believe Ray has addressed this, I will search for it later when i have a bit more time. The term "God" is a title not the Father's name. Father and Son are both "God" but the Son is not the Father. Jesus Himself says the Father is greater than He (Christ). But the Father has given His Son all things and created all things through Him, but that does not say that the Son knows all the mysteries of the Father. You can see from the verses I quoted previously that there are things yet to be known to Christ, that "only the Father knows."
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
brothertoall:
Yes Darren we are on the same side. I am not trying to argue here I realize that God reveals everything to the Son and it is no mystery to Christ. i am not saying that Christ is not being taught but quite the opposite. I do not believe that Christ is not being revealed things on God's time table.
I know Christ is equal with God for the word says so and Christ himself stated that all is from the Father.
Shoot now I am confused so maybe I better stop.
bobby
Deborah-Leigh:
Hey Bobby
Perhaps this can help.....
For me, and as I recall, the word "God" describes the office and the powers belonging to the one who is IN the office. The office shows the powers that are given to the person appointed to that position. The Father is in the office as God the Father. The Father has given this same office with the powers of its authority of God to His Son Jesus Christ. We too are being groomed to occupy the same office. When we occupy the office that is the same as the one given by Father to Jesus that we will share with Christ, we will be junior in rank to Jesus who will always be the first most senior Brother. First fruites of many bretheren.
There are many other scriptures that show that Jesus acknowledges His Father as His Father and as distinctly above Him in position as the One God. Where it is revealed that Jesus does not make the decisions is all through His discourses about His dependence on Father for everything. He shows also that He is not privy to some things....Matt 20 : 23 ....to sit at my right hand and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. We can debate whether or not Jesus knew who these were that the Father ordained and is preparing, but still it does show that this selection was not made by Jesus. Besides this, it is God the Father that does our selection and drags us to His Son......
I think this lines up with how we can expect to be in relationship to God the Father and His Son once we are revealed in His likeness. It is exciting and there are many aspects to consider from this thread........I am still reflecting on its message and call to us all to ponder and consider
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
hillsbororiver:
Bobby, Darren and Arcturus,
I appreciate all of your comments here.
Arcturus and I have discussed this before, that the most edifying threads inspire us to seek His Wisdom motivating us to search the Word and pray for understanding.
My original point in starting this was that I was thinking about from the day one is created, actually any creature man or beast from the time it is born and becomes a living soul learns, gains knowledge, wisdom or understanding if not spiritually but definitely in the physical world. The creature is wiser in some regard today more so than yesterday, and will gain more wisdom tomorrow. Even if the only thing someone learned that day is not to walk barefoot in a backyard where the dog lives they are wiser for it.
So since this existence in the flesh is a shadow of heavenly things is it not reasonable that since we gain wisdom by the day that even spiritual beings (excluding the Father) learn more every day as well? Even if time is not measured as such in the heavenly sphere doesn't knowledge increase as more and more of the Father and Son are revealed. Now would this not hold true for the Son as well? There are many scriptural references to the Father knowing things the Son does not and of things that are yet to be revealed.
I believe that we will be learning wondrous, unimaginable things when the Father is All in all, when His creation becomes truly Sons and Daughters. That is an incredible thought to ponder. I believe (like Arcturus mentioned) that the Son will always have pre eminence as the Firstfruit and our Saviour, our bridge to the Father but I also believe that wondrous new things will also be revealed to Him and through Him every day of our new immortal lives. It is a real joy to discover and share new things with loved ones, I just can't imagine our Lord standing around saying "I knew that already" when the Father is teaching and mentoring His Sons and Daughters as a loving Father.
This is really where I was going with this, that all creation gains wisdom now (in some manner) and will forever (in a most glorious manner).
To me this is a very exciting thought, to really understand all the wonderful works of God, with new wonders being shown constantly, forever.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: brothertoall on November 16, 2006, 05:09:00 PM ---
Joe you quoted:
I am not implying Christ did not know His mission until He witnessed the sacrifice(s) but that knowing your mission or goal is not quite the same as preparing, being trained and actually experiencing the actions necessary to achieve it. There are many scriptures that imply our Lord is still learning from the Father, that He is not equal even though He is One with Him, of the same mind, subject to and motivated to do only the will of the Father.[/color]
Joe,
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
bobby
--- End quote ---
Hello again Bobby,
I cut and pasted the article I mentioned, it is from the "Trinity" paper, http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Hey Darren, of course we (Bobby & I) are on the same side, the side of our Lord!
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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