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OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
hillsbororiver:
Hi Josh,
Here is that same verse from the Amplified Version;
John 16:15 (Amplified Bible)
Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.
As with an earthly father who gives all to his firstborn such as the family business, property, wealth and everything he owns, that does not mean that the heir has a complete knowledge of all the things being given to him. The heir will need guidance and mentoring on how best to utilize these things, who better than the father who built them?
Bill Gates could leave his empire with his firstborn, would that automatically bequeath the knowledge and wisdom that the senior Gates possessed? After the heir (Gates Junior) learns from his Father he is then in a position to mentor and teach his younger siblings.
My point in starting this topic was not to in any way deminish the absolute awe we should have for our Lord and Saviour, it just came to my mind that other than being pleased with the unblemished and heartfelt sacrifices made to Him by His people there very well could have been more to this than a shadow of what was going to be done for us, but the type presented in the sacrifices might have also been one of the things the Lord was being taught by the Father.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
brothertoall:
Christ being the creator surely would have known from the beginning what would have to be done.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Isaiah 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
bobby
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on November 16, 2006, 10:00:10 AM ---
John 8:28
(King James Version)
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things
Mark 13:32 (King James Version)
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father
John 5:30 (King James Version)
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
--- End quote ---
Bobby,
I am not implying Christ did not know His mission until He witnessed the sacrifice(s) but that knowing your mission or goal is not quite the same as preparing, being trained and actually experiencing the actions necessary to achieve it. There are many scriptures that imply our Lord is still learning from the Father, that He is not equal even though He is One with Him, of the same mind, subject to and motivated to do only the will of the Father.
John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
I see that the earthly mission of our Lord and Saviour, His experience in the flesh was beneficial (in the Father's eyes, therefore ultimately) to Christ as well as us, is it unimaginable that God the Father's plan is producing greater and greater results for ALL His creation, even His Beloved Son, His Firstfruit?
Does anyone believe that our Lord knows everything the Father knows? Does anyone believe that Christ will never learn another thing from the Father? That once we become Sons and Daughters of God that it is over? Nothing more to learn or grow in?
This is one of the things that excites me tremendously, that we will continue in learning of God all through our immortal spiritual transformation.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
brothertoall:
Joe you quoted:
I am not implying Christ did not know His mission until He witnessed the sacrifice(s) but that knowing your mission or goal is not quite the same as preparing, being trained and actually experiencing the actions necessary to achieve it. There are many scriptures that imply our Lord is still learning from the Father, that He is not equal even though He is One with Him, of the same mind, subject to and motivated to do only the will of the Father.[/color]
Joe,
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
bobby
YellowStone:
Joe, Bobby,
I am left wondering who is saying what here. Are you both on the same side or not? :)
Bobby, to your point.
Jhn 10:30
* I and [my] Father are one.
I think this fits very well with your point:
Jhn 10:30 Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
For whom else can attest to being "one" with God and being in the same form (equal) with God?
Joe, your Scriptures are flawless :)
Mark 13:32 (King James Version)
* But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the FatherJohn 5:30 (King James Version)
* I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Surely thereis no conflict here :)
Col 1:15-19 (NIV)
* 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (KJ - Creature)
* 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
* 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
* 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
* 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.
Several points worth of note here:
1. He is the image of the invisible God
2. The firstborn over all creation.
3. He is before all things (Not meaning God himself)
4. God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.
Bobby, I see that there is no reason to assume that Christ knows the complete mind and will of his Father. As Joe posted, there are many references by Christ himself, disproving this.
Please understand that I am not even suggesting what Christ knew or not, but clearly he did not know everything.
Love to you both. :)
Darren
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