> General Discussions
Our Path and God's Sovereignty
Prosizz:
Hi Darren and everyone, I want to post a bible version in french published in 2005 call : LA BIBLE DE L'ÉPÉE on 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-9. I will also endeavor to translate litteraly, to stay true to the verse, key verses into english. It has helped me . Hopefully it will help you too
6. Et maintenant vous savez ce qui le retient, afin qu'il ne soit manifesté que dans son temps.
7. Car ce mystère d'iniquité frauduleux est déjà actif; attendant seulement que celui qui le retient dans les chaînes maintenant, lui enlève la l’administration.
Because this mystery of fraudulent iniquity is already active; waiting only until that which now retains it in the chains, removes the administration to him
8. Et alors paraîtra l'impiété frauduleuse, que le Seigneur détruira par le Souffle de sa bouche, et qu'il anéantira par l'éclat de son apparition.
9. La manifestation de cette souveraineté de l’homme aura lieu par la conspiration du raisonnement adversaire par la justification par le choix, avec toute la puissance des prodiges et des faux miracles,
The demonstration of this sovereignty of man will take place by the conspiracy of the adverse reasoning by the justification by the choice, with all the power of the wonders and the false miracles
In this Bible version it states that the sovereignty of man is justified by the conspiracy of an adverse reasoning by choice.
I am not sure if I am completly understand verse 9 but what I gathered is that we do not really understand how man choice works. So the mystery of the fraudulant iniquity is how we adversely justify man soverignty by the fact that he has a choice.
Once we understand how man's choice work in God soverignty then we shall understand why man is responsible and God is accountable. I am console with the scripture that say we only know in part.
YellowStone:
Prosizz thanks for your post. I understand your point very well :)
I continued reading Pauls letter to the end of the chapter and found the following interesting:
2 Thessalonians 2:
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you* to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Paul says the he shoulld always be thankful for God having chosen the Thessalonians from the beginning. Can Paul chose to do, or is he like a puppet saying it, knowng full well that his words can never be heard unless God allows it?
This is of course a two part question. I believe without question that no one can come to God unless he draws him/her first. However, having come to God as Paul was drawn, is he still mindless if not for God forcing every word out of his mouth? Perhaps Paul having seen the truth is beginning to realize that yes indeed he should be thankful always.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings* we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Why would Paul waste his breath telling his brethren to stand firm, when clearly they are capable of no such thing. They can only stand firm if God holds them firm. Paul say's that they passed the teachings on to the Thessalonians by word of mouth or letter, but was it Paul or God who did the speaking and writing. Why would God say the words he knew would not be heard. Goodness, even the wicked cannot chose to ignore them. Do any of you read Pauls words and say: "who cares, if God wants me stand firm he will make me, otherwise, leave me alone." I would love to know? :)
16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,
17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
Now here is an interesting Scripture. Is Paul asking Christ as well as God to encourage the Thessalonians more than he had already. Gosh, did God make a mistake and not encourage them enough from the beginning. Could it no be that Paul genuinely cares for his brothers, so thast they may continue to hold the truth and grow stronger with God.
Through all of this, Satan is being ignored. Why will not anyone stand up and say. Stop this nonsense!! God has allowed me to see his love and I see the death and destruction that is common place in the world today, because Satan is walking bolder and bolder as he knows his days are drawing near.
Please do not tell me that Satan does not exist; that it was God who caused the death of a friend or the raping of your sister and NOT Satan.
Peter warns:
1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
God allows Satan to have his way on the world; surely he can see the outcome because he knows our weakness and the strength of Satan.
Why has Satan been ignored, why has he been forgotten; in favor of just accepting that God wanted your friend killed or sister raped. So much for a God of Love? Why does satan do such things???? To weaken us, to make us fall away from God. It must be working because all of the SUDDEN, it is God who makes/forces everyione to do such evil things, even against their will...oops what will. Who needs Satan when we have such God.
But is all of this in agreement to Pauls following words.
1Th 2:4
But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
Brothers and Sister, God allows us to see the truth and he allows us to grow; even though we are constantly tested, by Satan. God walks with us, is a comfort to us when we are down and out. He is a loving father, not an evil dictator.
We are not mindless puppets; even Satan knows better than that.
Love to everyone,
Darren
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Gena
Thank you for the appreciation and encouragement.
Kat my other sister…. :D
I was grateful for the excerpt you found and posted. You say God caused you...and He blessed me through you!
The information I was referring to is found in an e-mail response by Ray under the heading Accountable.
From this I quote:
“For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom (God) we are accountable. Heb 4 : 12-13
Even the King James Version with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word ‘responsible’ or “responsibility”.
Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word ;responsibility’. …”you’re responsible for going to hell”, ‘or “it’s your responsibility to accept Christ” or “the age of responsibility” or “everyone is responsible for his or her deeds.” Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture……
….Matt 12:36 Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging.
Rom 14 : 11-12 For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God….Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.
The church can only see the relative…..They fail to see…..the “absolute”.
The only One in the universe Who is responsible (able to respond) is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will.
God takes full responsibility…..He holds man accountable…..Man is accountable…..because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will.
The Scripture that comes to mind is covered in LOF Part 15. King Nebuchadnezzar was convinced that his wealth and success and status was entirely due to his skills, might , power and majesty. He did not recognize God in anything or for anything. God soon sorted that out! Like with Saul who was dazed out of his free will mind, Nebuchadnezzar was told.
Dan 4 : 31 While the words were still in the king’s mouth there fell a voice from heaven saying, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken; The kingdom has departed from you. 32 And you shall be driven from among men ….for seven years…until you have learned and know that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men and gives it to whomever He will.
For me this points to the vast sea of error arising out of the opinion, or belief or conviction that we have free will and are the captains of our destinies. We aren’t.
This points further for me to the vast lake of fire that will correct this error in which the beast holds dominion in the weakness shared by many who do not know God and His Sovereignty….who do not believe God and His word….and who do not understand God and His love for us. God will make right all these failings, weaknesses and liabilities to the temptation to believe trust in and cling to the illusion and lie that we have free will and free choice. We don’t and to believe we do shows that we have not come to understand the Scriptures or the power of God.
As Ray says…..”Until we come to believe that God Almighty is sovereign and”…is operating all according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11) we will never fully understand the Scriptures or appreciate the marvellous works of God. “
This discussion therefore is of vital importance Kat. It is HUGELY significant and I believe it is central to our spiritual condition.
Just read the following scriptures now and see what you think! ;D
Proverbs 3 : 6 In all your ways, in ALL YOUR WAYS….know, recognize and acknowledge Him,….ACKNOWLEDGE HIM…(and then what….here is the awesome consequence of being set free from the error of thinking we have a free will or we are responsible but not accountable )….and He will direct and make straight and plane your paths. Vs 23Then you will walk in your way (not my will but your Will be done…way) securely and in confident trust, and you shall not dash your foot or stumble. 24. When you lie down, you shall not be afraid; yes you shall lie down, and your sleep will be sweet. 25. Be not afraid of sudden terror and panic, nor of the stormy blast or the storm and ruin of the wicked when it comes, for you will be guiltless (or dependent and leaning and trusting and relying on Christ alone therefore free of the error of presuming to have free will/choice etc) 26 For the Lord shall be your confidence…. 8)35 ….Shame is the highest rank conferred on self-confident….SELF confident….SELF CONFIDENT…… FOOLS!: :o
I believe this demarcates the line between those selected for the first resurrection and those for the White Throne. I believe it is all centred upon …as Shakespeare wrote….”to be” (My free will, my choices, my life my self esteem…) or “not to be” (God as Sovereign, God as the potter, my life not my own as in the recognition that my self-esteem, self confidence is as my old man to be taken off, set aside and shunned.)
Ie…Self-esteem is the carnal flesh mind
Christ-esteem, Christ dependence is freedom.
Personally, I believe the world system is not only teaching but is also supported both clinically, psychologically and on the play fields where we send our children to acquire an education…in a. covert soul toxic, mind convoluting and heart hardening teaching of …..SELF ESTEEM. (Self confidence!) Self esteem is for me the most undercover, disguised heresy of the world that has wide support from the wise of the world (Education and medical systems). ….it is a comfort to know what God thinks about the wisdom of the world….it is a comfort… a plain and straight pathway for those He drags out of the world.
Marie I like the scripture that rose up in you that you quoted and the experiences you shared. Isaiah 26 : 3 You will guard him and keep him in perfect and constant peace whose mind, both its inclination and it’s character is stayed on You, because he commits himself to You, leans on You, and hopes confidently in You. Vs 12 Lord, You will ordain peace, God’s favour and blessings, for us, for You have also wrought in us and for us all OUR works.”
LOF part 6...
EVERY thought, EVERY word, EVERY deed, that proceeds out of the heart and mind of man is HIS WORKS!
The power of God is more powerful than the error of free will. We know that Christ has overcome the world with all its errors and all persons in which free will is still a God. We who are privileged to see this, to hear this and believe this, are way off the world systems radar screen…WAY OFF……and to those more highly favoured and blessed….way out too!
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
MG:
--- Quote ---Is it your understanding that man has not the ability to think, speak, feel, love or hate on his/her own accord?
--- End quote ---
I can only speak for myself Darren.
Think
I have PTSD caused by much stress and trauma in my life. My thoughts are caught in a constant loop of hyper alert to danger even though the danger is non existent. I live with automatic thoughts that a person would have in the middle of a war zone. I can't change it or think differently. If I had free choice concerning my thoughts I would not think this way. It causes me great pain.
I am often self absorbed because of my constant suffering. It's all I can do to endure my own mind. I would not continue to think this way if I had free choice. I would take every thought in captivity for the glory of God if I could. I would think on only those things which are good and lovely if I could. If I had the choice.
I think constantly on the truths of God. I've studied thousands of hours. I still can't grasp some truths. It doesn't matter how hard I try. If my thinking could get me there I would know all the truth by now. I can't know these truths unless God reveals them to me.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
I can't renew my own mind. I would have done that by now if I had the choice. I've tried harder than anyone I know. My thoughts were caused by events in my life that were out of my control. Rape, suicide, witnessing a plane crash with 180 dead, and then PTSD. My children were both tortured without my knowledge and my son is an alcoholic. All added stress to my PTSD and theirs. Now my grandson is plagued with thoughts of depression due to constant migraines. I think I would die if I thought that God was the kind of God who just stood by and watched his children tortured by evil without causing all of it for my good and their good. Satan may be the ruler of this world, but if you remember in Job he had to ask permission for everything he did.
I have no free will with my thoughts. I would be happy if I did. I would not suffer every day if I had free choice. It will take an outside cause to change my thoughts.
feel
I cried in pain for at least 20 years every single day. The emotional damage was also caused by outside events. I tried everything to find healing for my pain. I couldn't find it. One day I was crying and feeling intense pain and I told a friend that I had tried everything possible and the pain would not go away. Instantly I had a ton of emotional pain lifted from me by God's hand. He spent the next 5 years healing my emotional damage. I witnessed 5 years of miracles within me. I could not change the way I felt. I had no free choice to feel the way I wanted to feel. I still don't. I am no longer in emotional pain, but I can't feel happy. I can't feel joy. If I had a choice I would feel these wonderful things. It will take a miracle from God to bring any kind of joy in my life. I do not have the choice to choose that for myself.
love or hate
I struggled for years with my mother. I would visit her and feel such resentment and then such guilt. I would do everything humanly possible to hold it in and be overly nice to her. It would overwhelm me at times. A few years ago I told God that I tried everything to heal my mother's and my relationship and I just couldn't do it. I asked him to heal us before my mother died. She is 85 today. After that day I've had the most loving relationship with my mother. God did heal our relationship. I am able to love her without resentment and I've received love from her that didn't exist before that time. I can now say that my mother loves me and I don't resent her any longer. I did not have the choice to cause that. I know I have no choice. Every time I went over to visit I told myself I wasn't going to let it bother me and every time I left with guilt and resentment. Now I leave with a warm feeling of being loved.
I don't know how to love others as God loves me because I haven't been able to experience God's love for me. God is love and if I'm not filled with that love and that joy I can't possibly love others. I can love them with human love, but that's not real love.
So I sit here knowing that I don't have free choice. I should not even believe at all after everything I've been through. The faith that God gave me rules over anything else and I must go forward. I have no choice. When Jesus called the fisherman and tax collector they instantly dropped everything and followed him. Peter follow me. He dropped the net and followed. Matthew follow me. He dropped the money and followed. They left their families. They left their homes. They left their life and lost their lives.
I'm sorry for rambling. Just one more thought. I went 6 months once with very little food. The kids and I ate top ramen, beans and rice for 6 months. I would have chosen chicken, but there was no chicken. If I choose to drink coffee in the morning it is because I have coffee. The cause of the choice is the availability of the thing that I think I'm choosing.
I don't look at it like being on a CD. I look at it as if we are a living, written expression of God's love.
2 Corinthians 3
1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
A child in the womb does not have a choice of how he/she develops. There is a written code that makes each of us individuals with unique gifts and personalities. What choice does an unborn baby have? We are being conceived.
YellowStone:
Hi Kat :)
Just quoting something that Ray wrote:
"God intends for men to go against His will (that's how men become lost so that God can then save them), but no one, absolutely NO ONE, has ever gone against God's INTENTION! Hey, don't get angry with me - I'm just quoting the Scriptures."
This is not hard to believe when one realizes that without God they are nothing and that for even their breath they should be thankful. But did you see what Ray say's; that God intends men to break his will. Gosh I must be missing something here. It is either God will that men go against it or not. If he intended it then he willed it. Why can we not also say that God willed Satan to pull many away from God. Is this not true? Why can we not give credit to Satan for keeping so many away from the truth and blinding them with the material things of this world.
Ray also quoted Paul:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
I find the word "in" to be pivotable in this verse.
Strongs 1722 en {en}
1) in, by, with etc.
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2800
AV - in 1902,
by 163,
with 140,
among 117,
at 113,
on 62,
through 39,
misc 264; 2800
This is a wonderful verse. :) For Paul acknowledges that we are God's own children, his very offspring. For we livin in him; our every action is in/through God, for he is the center of our very being. He allows me to move my body with Love instead out of hate as Satan would have us do. Have we any idea how thankful we should be :)
Does this make sense, anyone?
Love,
Darren
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