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Author Topic: Our Path and God's Sovereignty  (Read 5565 times)

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Kat

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Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« on: November 29, 2006, 12:35:06 PM »


Pro 16:9  A  man's heart plans his way, but Jehovah directs his steps.

Jer 10:23  I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

So in His sovereignty God directs our steps, to be a certain way, from started to finish.

Isa 46:10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;

God knows exactly how our lives will go, we do have choices to make all along the way, but even those are all caused, because God's will (sovereignty) and purpose are is to have this age to be a certain way.

Is this the reason behind what Paul (all of us) says ‘for what I desire, that I do not; but what I hate, that I do.‘

I don't see it as God controls what we think, wouldn't that be what makes us accountable, we think things out in our mind and heart and actually decide to carry out the words or action according to our own desire. But it was brought about from the causes that lead us to it.

Rom 7:15  For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
v.16  If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good.
v.17  But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
v.18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
v.19  For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
v.20  But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me. (MKJV)

We are all carnal and subject to the weaknesses of the flesh. If it were left up to us to decide, wouldn’t we always choose the easy way.  It takes an all knowing sovereign God to devise this plan and the path of this life to have people in His kingdom that He needs, and we gain what we need to learn in this life. But most certainly it all will be to the glory of the Most High God.

Rom 9:15  For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
v.16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
v.17  In the Scriptures the Lord says to Pharaoh of Egypt, "I let you become king, so that I could show you my power and be praised by all people on earth."
v.18  Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.
v.19  Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?"
v.20  But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?
v.21  Doesn't a potter have the right to make a fancy bowl and a plain bowl out of the same lump of clay?"
v.22  God wanted to show his anger and reveal his power against everyone who deserved to be destroyed. But instead, he patiently put up with them.
v.23  He did this by showing how glorious he is when he has pity on the people he has chosen to share in his glory. (CEV)

Dan 2:20  "Our God, your name will be praised forever and forever. You are all-powerful, and you know everything.
v.21  You control human events-- you give rulers their power and take it away, and you are the source of wisdom and knowledge.

Dan 4:35  To him the nations are far less than nothing; God controls the stars in the sky and everyone on this earth. When God does something, we cannot change it or even ask why."

All of this shows there is no free will, it’s hard when we realize that we really do not have control. But sure we do have to make all make my own choices, and it's voluntarily, even though those decisions are causes, but we decided and do it. but things will all turn out the way God already knew it would.
So it’s a comfort to me to know that the Father does “works all things according to the counsel of His own will, for us to be to the praise of His glory…” Eph. 1:11-12

It would be easy to blame God for our suffering, but that would show our lack of understanding, because it’s all for our ultimate good.

1Peter 5:10  But God shows undeserved kindness to everyone. That's why he appointed Christ Jesus to choose you to share in his eternal glory. You will suffer for a while, but God will make you complete, steady, strong, and firm.
v.11  God will be in control forever! Amen.

This helps me comprehend that this is all worth it.

Jam 4:14  yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.

Our time in this world is so short. In the ages to come the suffering of this life will be but a vague memory,
I have a hard time even remembering things from even a few years ago  :-\

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:21:05 PM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2006, 04:26:42 PM »

Hi Kat

In today's e-mail responces Ray writes : THERE IS NO, "free will"/"free choice"/"free thought"/"free actions," etc., etc., etc.  Every thought, statement, and deed, has a cause, and anything that is "caused" to happen is NOT FREE TO NOT HAPPEN!  This is not only basic Scripture, this is also basic Science. It is called "cause and effect."

What strikes me is the peace and joy that infuses through your post as to how you percieve God's Sovereignty.   You write :

This looks to me like God has planned out our lives for us,
...No hysteria, no objections, no opposition...just plain simple acceptance and peace is coming through for me in your observation.

You comment : It would be easy to blame God for our suffering, but that would show our lack of understanding,

I agree with you as clearly Paul also had to deal with this perspective from people who railed against his teachings.


You witness to the fact that....This helps me comprehend that this is all worth it.

I have just one little point that perhaps you already know....You write...I don't see it as God controls what we think, wouldn't that be what makes us accountable,

I have somewhere on file where Ray answers this. As I recall...we are accountable in as much as we believe we have free will. :D

I conclude with, when we know we do not have free will and we begin to percieve the power and the authority of God and His Sovereignty....then wisdom begins to dawn on us :D.....then we begin to know God ;D and then we recieve justification...that being for us now there is no condemnation..... 8)

So where we recognize these deep mysteries of God, it is there we begin to express the fruits of His Spirit in Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness etc etc 8)  8)  8)

Sisters

Arcturus  :)
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Kat

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2006, 06:41:32 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

Thanks for the input.

You brought up this point.

Quote
I have just one little point that perhaps you already know....You write...I don't see it as God controls what we think, wouldn't that be what makes us accountable,

I have somewhere on file where Ray answers this. As I recall...we are accountable in as much as we believe we have free will.

Well that made me wonder if I was still holding on to some point of 'thinking' about free will  :-[

So I looked throught Ray's articles till I found it.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ------------------------------------------------

FREE WILL VS. GOD'S INTENTION

Until we come to believe that God Almighty is sovereign and " ... is operating all according to the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1:11) we will never fully understand the Scriptures or appreciate the marvelous works of God.

To say that man has a "free will" and absolutely nothing "causes" it to accept or reject God, and then say, "But God already knows who will and who won't and how many," is not only unscriptural, but defies all logic. To say, "But God knows all" will not solve your dilemma. Because if nothing causes man to choose as he does, then that knowledge does not even exist until the choice is actually made. Yet you yourself insist that one could have chosen good when he chose evil. If God does not cause people's choices, then even God would have to wait until the choice is actually made before knowing the choice.

You might postulate that God sees and knows all things so God can deduce from "this event" or "that event" or "a condition over here" or "a circumstance over there" or "some other thing" that a man will make the choice that God knows he will make. Okay, I'll accept that. Only one problem for your position, however. If this is your reasoning, you just threw your own "free will" theory out the window. This is, in the main, how our choices actually work. Something over here or other there, this event or that event, a word spoken here or there, the condition of our stomach or the condition of our bank account, etc., are the very things that daily cause us to make the choices that we make. And God controls and operates all of these unseen, unknown circumstances that then "influence" (just a softer way of saying "cause") our every thought.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh well, God caused me to put that down wrong,
so I would study it more and learn it thoroughly  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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gmik

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2006, 10:37:21 PM »

You gals amaze me  :-* I always learn something & get blessed.

Thanks so much
for all the work you put
into your posts.

Bless you!!!
gena
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ned

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 01:06:25 AM »

You know where I marvel, is where the "powers that be", "the invisible", "the principalities" are concerned. I can recall my whole life wondering if there was something really "out there" like a spiritual realm or higher being than man.
While I was "in the dark", I was really an impatient and sometimes angry person, for example, if I dropped and broke a dish, I would get mad, and would be fuming while I was picking it up, and then something else bad would happen, like I'd cut myself on the glass, or I would have it all picked up, only for it to drop again and spatter into even more pieces. Of course then I would just get madder. Then the next time I broke a dish, I might be in a better mood, and pick it up with all patience and loving kindness in the world, and everything would go smooth about this occurance, and I used to wonder, Wow, is there something really out there that knows how I'm feeling and reacting to things, to make the outcome of these same situations so different depending on how my attitude is towards it?  This has happened numerous times over the years, not just in the scenario described above, but so many others.  And each time, I thought, there is no way something higher can know what I'm thinking in that my good or bad attitude changes the outcome.
NOW, in hindsight, because I know with all assuredness that God is real (I didn't always 100% know it), I really see that there are invisible powers and principalities, and they are just that, invisible. And how awesome is it, that OUR God is in control of ALL these powers and principalities??!! (Rom13:1, Pro8:15, Joh19:11, etc..) I am amazed to say the least!  This to me is such a wealth of knowledge, I feel richly blessed beyond my imagination to know our God.  Just as plain as light is of the day, do I see that He causes things to happen which influence my actions.

This might be 'way out there' in the post you started, Kat, but I just felt like adding this, I hope you don't mind.

I want to share this verse I came across today in the CEV version, it's awesome;
Rom 13:14   
Let the Lord Jesus Christ be as near to you as the clothes you wear. Then you won't try to satisfy your selfish desires.

What a great verse to ponder, to know and believe He is as near to me as the clothes I wear. That's pretty close, and that's just what I want!

Love,
Marie
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Brett

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 02:04:08 AM »

Hi Kat,

Excellent post! Deep God's words. I love it. ;)

Brett
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YellowStone

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 02:05:22 AM »

Maria wrote:

I want to share this verse I came across today in the CEV version, it's awesome;
Rom 13:14  
Let the Lord Jesus Christ be as near to you as the clothes you wear. Then you won't try to satisfy your selfish desires.

What a great verse to ponder, to know and believe He is as near to me as the clothes I wear. That's pretty close, and that's just what I want!


Now that's the kind of God I am talking about; one who will help protect us from our own foolishness and selfishness.

Thanks for a wonderful post Maria
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Brett

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 02:31:43 AM »

Hi Darren,

I read your:

Quote
So that men are without excuse. This is a major stumbling block for me.!!!


I had same problem and I did send email Ray of my concerning, I pasted it below:

Hi Ray,

I read your series of Lake of Fire, I think is chapter 8 so far. I don't read fast. Anyway,
About blinded people in spiritual and they cannot help it because they are deceived. I found Romans 1:20,

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I am not sure understand. Is that mean God removed person's spiritual blinded and see the profound truth with understanding then he go back where he was before like sinning or back to Babylon, then he is no excused because his spiritual has been removed?

Thanks!

Brett
(deaf)


Dear Brett:  A better translation of "without excuse" would be "defenseless."  They cannot "defend" their actions based on what they themselves have seen.  All mankind as looked at the heavens, and the earth, and the animals, and the tries, and human life, and saw how marvelous all these things are. What man could climb or fly to the stars?  What man can make an elephant?  What man can create a mountain several miles high?  What man can create another man? What man can make a tree?  What man can produce his own food from the soil?  Man has observed these many marvels all through history. Obviously not one of them could ever conceive of accomplishing such things as they see, and yet....AND YET, he has refused to worship the Great God Who has made all these things, and instead worships other men as weak as himself, or worse, he worships birds, and reptiles, and sticks and stones.  There is no defense for attributing creation to one of the tiny tiny elements OF creation.  And yes, they have all been deceived, but yet, even being deceived, they are "DEFENSELESS" for their actions.
God be with you,
Ray


I checked the Greek word of 'defensless' is anapologētos and I believe CLV is correct translated. Because 'without excuse' is to me mean 'you have no excuse' relate to 'you are responsible of this', know what I mean? Ray did clear me good.

Brett :)

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YellowStone

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 09:26:01 AM »

Brett,

I thank you so much for your response. :)

I looked into the different meanings given to anapologetos {an-ap-ol-og'-ay-tos} which is often translated to mean "without excuse"

Strongs has the following:


Stongs 379 - anapologetos {an-ap-ol-og'-ay-tos}

  1) without defense or excuse

  2) that which cannot be defended, inexcusable

There is no doubt that Ray's words hold credence; however, by substituting the words "without excuse" for "without defense" or "which cannot be defended" (defenseless) does not in anyway shape or form change the context of this passage. We have no "defense" if we say to God: "I was just to busy to notice!"  Duh! Yeah right. :)

At the risk of this post being deleted, I will post a small comment of Ray's that in my mind skirts the entire issue. I will email him for clarification

Ray wrote:

Dear Brett:  A better translation of "without excuse" would be "defenseless."  They cannot "defend" their actions based on what they themselves have seen.  All mankind as looked at the heavens, and the earth, and the animals, and the tries, and human life, and saw how marvelous all these things are. What man could climb or fly to the stars?  What man can make an elephant?  What man can create a mountain several miles high?  What man can create another man? What man can make a tree?  What man can produce his own food from the soil?  Man has observed these many marvels all through history. Obviously not one of them could ever conceive of accomplishing such things as they see, and yet....AND YET, he has refused to worship the Great God Who has made all these things, and instead worships other men as weak as himself, or worse, he worships birds, and reptiles, and sticks and stones.  There is no defense for attributing creation to one of the tiny tiny elements OF creation.  And yes, they have all been deceived, but yet, even being deceived, they are "DEFENSELESS" for their actions.
God be with you,
Ray


May I ask who Ray say's refused to recognize and worship God?   "He" as in man has refused; however, is/was it by choice or by the will of God.

Ray, continues to support my argument, man has continued to worship all kinds natural and man made objects; however, are we "defenseless" in the sense that we are not responsible or rather can we not defend our actions, because they are without defense and simply cannot be defended?

I would hope that the moderators leave this thread intact. I will email my posts and your response Brett to Ray and will gladly post his response.

I do not accept that God makes me do everything, because if that is true, then Satan is of no consequence and life has no meaning.

Love to you all, for God is Love.

Darren

 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 09:30:35 AM by YellowStone »
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sansmile

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2006, 09:49:18 AM »

Hi all,

I have heard an analogy used to help describe this, I will try and use it.

As parents we teach (and chasten) our children. Let's say we put an apple and a bar of chocolate in front of them. Most times that child would choose the chocolate and we knowing them, knew that they would. But as we teach them about healthy eating, looking after themselves etc., then sooner, rather than later they would choose the apple over the chocolate. And we knowing, that we have been guiding and teaching them, would know what choice they would make. It's the same with our Father.

Does this make sense??

Sansmile
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Walk in the Spirit

YellowStone

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2006, 10:02:09 AM »

Sansmile,   :)

It makes perfect sense. Your analogy wonderful, for as loving parents we are teaching respondsibility. Surely, our Father, is allowing us to learn in the same way. :)

Love to you,
Darren
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longhorn

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2006, 12:10:36 PM »

Quote "I do not accept that God makes me do everything, because if that is true, then Satan is of no consequence and life has no meaning." 

Yellowstone, Please tell my ex-wife that.

Longhorn
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YellowStone

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2006, 02:06:36 PM »

FYI,

Ray very kindly responded to my email. Here is what he said



Dear Darren:
I don't recall ever using the word "BLAMING" God for anything.  Suggesting that if man does not have "free will," it somehow limis  God's "creative ability," is highly inflamitory.  You might just as well suggest that since nature and providence is filled with such things as floods, hurricanes, tornados, volcanos, forest fires, tsunamis, and earthquakes are proof that God cannot even create this earth without obvious flaws and mistakes.  Maybe that is because God did create it perfect, but that nature also has "free will," and therefore is another uncontrollable renegate in God's creation. What do you think?  The problem is that most people DON'T THINK, and that is why the Truths of God are such enigmas to more of humanity and especially the Church.
 
I have written about 120 pages on exposing "The Myth of Free Will."  It is found in my "Lake of Fire" series on our home page. Either man does not have a free will and God is Sovereign, OR, man has a free will and God is NOT Sovereign. They cannot both be true, as "Free will of man" and "the Sovereignty of God" are absolute contradictions.  This is not an easy subject for most to comprehend, but with much meditation, study of the Scriptures, and a revelation from God's spirit, it can easily be understood.
 
God be with you,
Ray
 



Dear Ray,
 
I pray that you able to shed some light on the topic Blaming GOD for everything, and whether or not God has the creative ability to create man who can think and act on his (mans) own accord,
 
This subject has proven to be a major stumbling block, and I am not seeking to cause trouble, but rather continue growing in truth.
 
Brothers in Christ,
 
Darren
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YellowStone

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2006, 02:08:56 PM »

Still feeling as if my question missed the mark, I sent him another.

I would very much like to hear any comments thst sny of you might have on what I asked below.

Please share your thoughts as I need help. I truly believe that God has me on the right track.

With much love,

Darren

Dear Ray,

Thank you so much for your response. Let us for a moment drop the freewill concept, because I do not think that this is where the issue lies.

Is it your understanding that man has the ability to think, speak, feel, love or hate on his/her own accord?

Or do you believe that the life of man is no more than sound from a CD player; noteing that nothing other than the sound that is pre-recorded digitally will ever (ignoring scratches) be produced. If this is true, then are we no more than droids. Of what use is waking up in the morning; why "try" to live according to God's will; because if we are incapable of free thought and free emotions because we are so "locked" into our predestined tracks, we cannot learn of our own accord and it is senseless trying. Simply because if God wants us to learn we will.

We are instructed to study God's word; why?

You mention nature; and how God made it perfect, and clearly it is not. But by whose eyes are we judging perfection; ours or Gods. I am sure you have heard of "cause and effect" Picture please for a moment, millions of dominoes painstakenly setup in the most beautiful awe-inspiring arrangement. What does it take to destroy this arrangement? Well if the first domino is pushed in order to knock the second over; the remainder will fall. Destruction is inevitable.

Who is making them fall? Is God, one domino at a time causing it to fall at the exact point of time, or rather are the dominoes falling in perfect sequence because of the wondererous God given laws of physics, etc that controls our life as we know it.

Please Ray, do not think for a moment that I think that I am not bound by God; but do you really think that God can not know the future of all of us, in the same manner as the person who pushes the first domino knows when the last one will fall, based on the wonderful laws that God has put in place. Domino# 876,875,231 is pushed in the back and falls forward, knocking another domino, even we can know the exact time and place, because God has given us such a perfect universe.

Is such an example outside the confines of Romans 1:20.

For whatever reason, our entire universe operates on this same premise. We are because God allows us to be, of this there is no question.

So in closing, are the many thoughts inside my head put there by God, or rather are they my thoughts because God has allowed me to think and sometimes hit's me over the head because my thinking drifts away from the prize. Has he allowed me to see him and know him through creation, or are we mindless puppets, incapable of anything unless our strings are pulled. Does are hair on my head wave in the wind because God is "making" it or does it wave because of "cause and effect" based on the laws of physics of God's wonderful creation

If I cannot think, then I cannot fail. I therefore am perfect as a digital CD because God recorded it, why then strive for anything?

Ray, I think a lot :)

I really believe that this is my question the best way I know how to ask it.,

With much Love,

Darren
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 02:38:04 PM by YellowStone »
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Kat

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2006, 03:05:30 PM »

Hi Darren,

I seem to have a nack, for posting difficult subjects  :-\
Hopefully we will all learn something from this discussion.

I've found more on this subject in Ray's letter to Kennedy,
I think it speaks to your question to him.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -----------------------------------

Theologians view the Scriptures in the same way little children view a marionette show. Like little children, they suppose that the marionettes are "truth." They suppose that what they see is the absolute truth. These marionettes really do walk and talk "by themselves;" they really do sing and dance "by themselves." Certainly to the immature and the uninitiated, they have that power within themselves. But, they haven't a clue as to what is happening behind the curtain. They haven't a clue as to how these little marionettes do what they do! They haven't even considered that there may be a higher power "operating" these marionettes.

In this, theologians are like little children. Theologians don't want to know what's going on behind the curtain. They are perfectly happy in their ignorance. They are entertained by their own false delusions, and ever so proud of their independence from God!

And why is it that little children are deceived by marionettes' lifelike behavior? Because the strings are very thin and the operators are hid behind the curtain. They can see them perform with their own eyes. They can hear them singing with their own ears. Surely that is proof enough for a little child. And what more proof do you have that humans "perform" independent from the One Who is operating all (Eph. 11:1)? None. God doesn't need thinner strings to fool us-God operates by Spirit. God doesn't need to hide behind a curtain-God is invisible (II Cor. 4:4).

Just as surely as children are fooled into believing that marionettes perform by their own powers, theologians and the wise of this world are fooled into thinking that man too can operate, in and by himself, independently of his own Creator.

Theologians teach this falsehood because they live by sight not by faith. Like little children, they don't perceive any strings nor the Operator, which are both invisible. So with them, as with children, they assume there are no operating forces in their lives-they are "free." Hence they refuse to believe even the Scriptural declarations that God is Operating all according to the counsel of His own will (Eph. 11:1), and that apart from Christ they can do nothing (Jn 15:5).

We are witnessing a worldwide Christian movement where the blind are leading the blind. They are like a Hollywood horror film where renegade marionettes band together and try to cut off the controlling strings, never to be operated against their wills by their Creator again. They want to have powers beyond what their Maker built into them. Everyone wants to be a Potter, when in reality, he is just a pot. "And now, Lord, Thou art our Father. And we are the clay. Thou art our Former, and the doing of Thy hand are we all" (Isa. 64:8).

Someone might retort: "Mr. Smith, are you saying that I can't even move my little finger unless it is God's intention that I do so?"

That is exactly what I am saying. Because that is exactly what God is saying: " ... not far from each one of us is He [God] inherent, for in Him we are living and moving [our little finger] and are [exist] ... " (Acts 17:28). I'm sorry that there are people who are not happy with this arrangement; I am. It gives me confidence and hope to know that God is controlling everything to a perfect conclusion. Man only thinks he has independent free will from God, and look where this world is headed. Imagine the state of affairs if man actually did have free will.

Free will or independence from our Creator God is just an illusion. It is, nonetheless, a marvelous illusion. The genius of God is overwhelming. It is this very illusion that enables mankind to actually believe he is the master of his own fate. And God helps bolster this illusion by actually giving men a certain amount of success in their quest for power, fame, and fortune. But just like the King of Assyria, Pharaoh, and others, all, one day, will realize and appreciate the fact that it was God " ... operating all ... "

These inspired words of the Apostle Paul are so clear that one has to be downright stubborn as to the truth, not to believe them:

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:18-21)

God said He raised Pharaoh up for the express purpose of displaying His power in him (Ver. 17). It is an historical and Scriptural fact that God did this to Pharaoh. Ver. 18 then states that, consequently then, God is either "merciful," or "hardens" anyone He wants to. And whosoever they are have nothing to say about God's doing so.

Well, of course, if one is hostile against God and His word, his retort to this statement of Paul's would then be:

"WHY, THEN, IS HE STILL BLAMING?" (Ver. 19)

How can God hold people accountable for their sins when it was "He" [God] who brought about their condition? At least Paul's detractors had the sense to realize that if what Paul was saying is true, then they are solely at God's mercy (not their own ability) to ever change their condition, because their next statement is:

" ... for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?" (Ver. 19).

God intends for men to go against His will (that's how men become lost so that God can then save them), but no one, absolutely NO ONE, has ever gone against God's INTENTION! Hey, don't get angry with me - I'm just quoting the Scriptures.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Prosizz

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2006, 03:23:38 PM »

Hi Darren and everyone, I want to post a bible version in french published in 2005 call : LA BIBLE DE L'ÉPÉE   on 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-9. I will also endeavor to translate litteraly, to stay true to the verse, key verses into english. It has helped me .  Hopefully it will help you too

6.  Et maintenant vous savez ce qui le retient, afin qu'il ne soit manifesté que dans son temps.
7.  Car ce mystère d'iniquité frauduleux est déjà actif; attendant seulement que celui qui le retient dans les chaînes maintenant, lui enlève la l’administration.

Because this mystery of fraudulent iniquity is already active; waiting only until that which now retains it in the chains, removes the administration to him

8.  Et alors paraîtra l'impiété frauduleuse, que le Seigneur détruira par le Souffle de sa bouche, et qu'il anéantira par l'éclat de son apparition.
9.  La manifestation de cette souveraineté de l’homme aura lieu par la conspiration du raisonnement adversaire par la justification par le choix, avec toute la puissance des prodiges et des faux miracles,

The demonstration of this sovereignty of man will take place by the conspiracy of the adverse reasoning  by the justification by the choice, with all the power of the wonders and the false miracles

In this Bible version it states that the sovereignty of man is justified by the conspiracy of an adverse reasoning by choice.
 
I am not sure if I am completly understand verse 9 but what I gathered is that we do not really understand how  man choice works. So the mystery of the fraudulant iniquity is how we adversely justify man soverignty by the fact that he has a choice.
Once we understand how man's choice work in God soverignty then we shall understand why man is responsible and God is accountable. I am console with the scripture that say we only know in part.

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YellowStone

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2006, 04:08:24 PM »

Prosizz thanks for your post. I understand your point very well :)

I continued reading Pauls letter to the end of the chapter and found the following interesting:

2 Thessalonians 2:

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you* to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Paul says the he shoulld always be thankful for God having chosen the Thessalonians from the beginning.  Can Paul chose to do, or is he like a puppet saying it, knowng full well that his words can never be heard unless God allows it?

This is of course a two part question. I believe without question that no one can come to God unless he draws him/her first. However, having come to God as Paul was drawn, is he still mindless if not for God forcing every word out of his mouth?
Perhaps Paul having seen the truth is beginning to realize that yes indeed he should be thankful always.

14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings* we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Why would Paul waste his breath telling his brethren to stand firm, when clearly they are capable of no such thing. They can only stand firm if God holds them firm. Paul say's  that they passed the teachings on to the Thessalonians by word of mouth or letter, but was it Paul or God who did the speaking and writing. Why would God say the words he knew would not be heard.  Goodness, even the wicked cannot chose to ignore them. Do any of you read Pauls words and say: "who cares, if God wants me stand firm he will make me, otherwise, leave me alone." I would love to know? :)

16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,
17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

Now here is an interesting Scripture. Is Paul asking Christ as well as God to encourage the Thessalonians more than he had already. Gosh, did God make a mistake and not encourage them enough from the beginning. Could it no be that Paul genuinely cares for his brothers, so thast they may continue to hold the truth and grow stronger with God.

Through all of this, Satan is being ignored. Why will not anyone stand up and say. Stop this nonsense!! God has allowed me to see his love and I see the death and destruction that is common place in the world today, because Satan is walking bolder and bolder as he knows his days are drawing near.

Please do not tell me that Satan does not exist; that it was God who caused the death of a friend or the raping of your sister and NOT Satan.

Peter warns:

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


God allows Satan to have his way on the world; surely he can see the outcome because he knows our weakness and the strength of Satan.

Why has Satan been ignored, why has he been forgotten; in favor of just accepting that God wanted your friend killed or sister raped. So much for a God of Love? Why does satan do such things????  To weaken us, to make us fall away from God. It must be working because all of the SUDDEN, it is God who makes/forces everyione to do such evil things, even against their will...oops what will. Who needs Satan when we have such God.

But is all of this in agreement to Pauls following words.

1Th 2:4
But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

Brothers and Sister, God allows us to see the truth and he allows us to grow; even though we are constantly tested, by Satan. God walks with us, is a comfort to us when we are down and out. He is a loving father, not an evil dictator.

We are not mindless puppets; even Satan knows better than that.

Love to everyone,

Darren
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2006, 04:14:38 PM »

Hi Gena

Thank you for the appreciation and encouragement.

Kat my other sister…. :D

I was grateful for the excerpt you found and posted. You say God caused you...and He blessed me through you!

The information I was referring to is found in an e-mail response by Ray under the heading Accountable.

From this I quote:

“For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom (God) we are accountable. Heb 4 : 12-13

Even the King James Version with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word ‘responsible’ or “responsibility”.

Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word ;responsibility’. …”you’re responsible for going to hell”, ‘or “it’s your responsibility to accept Christ” or “the age of responsibility” or “everyone is responsible for his or  her deeds.” Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture……

….Matt 12:36 Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging.

Rom 14 : 11-12  For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God….Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God.

The church can only see the relative…..They fail to see…..the “absolute”.


The only One in the universe Who is responsible (able to respond) is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will.

God takes full responsibility…..He holds man accountable…..Man is accountable…..because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will.


The Scripture that comes to mind is covered in LOF Part 15. King Nebuchadnezzar was convinced that his wealth and success and status was entirely due to his skills, might , power and majesty. He did not recognize God in anything or for anything. God soon sorted that out! Like with Saul who was dazed out of his free will mind, Nebuchadnezzar was told.

Dan 4 : 31 While the words were still in the king’s mouth there fell a voice from heaven saying, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken; The kingdom has departed from you. 32 And you shall be driven from among men ….for seven years…until you have learned and know that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men and gives it to whomever He will.

For me this points to the vast sea of error arising out of the opinion, or belief or conviction that we have free will and are the captains of our destinies. We aren’t.

This points further for me to the vast lake of fire that will correct this error in which the beast holds dominion in the weakness shared by many who do not know God and His Sovereignty….who do not believe God and His word….and who do not understand God and His love for us. God will make right all these failings, weaknesses and liabilities to the temptation to believe trust in and cling to the illusion and lie that we have free will and free choice. We don’t and to believe we do shows that we have not come to understand the Scriptures or the power of God.

As Ray says…..”Until we come to believe that God Almighty is sovereign and”…is operating all according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11) we will never fully understand the Scriptures or appreciate the marvellous works of God. “

This discussion therefore is of vital importance Kat. It is HUGELY significant and I believe it is central to our spiritual condition.

Just read the following scriptures now and see what you think! ;D

Proverbs 3 : 6  In all your ways, in ALL YOUR WAYS….know, recognize and acknowledge Him,….ACKNOWLEDGE HIM…(and then what….here is the awesome consequence of being set free from the error of thinking we have a free will or we are responsible but not accountable )….and He will direct and make straight and plane your paths. Vs 23Then you will walk in  your way (not my will but your Will be done…way) securely and in confident trust, and you shall not dash your foot or stumble. 24. When you lie down, you shall not be afraid; yes you shall lie down, and your sleep will be sweet. 25. Be not afraid of sudden terror and panic, nor of the stormy blast or the storm and ruin of the wicked when it comes, for you will be guiltless (or dependent and leaning and trusting and relying on Christ alone therefore free of the error of presuming to have free will/choice etc) 26 For the Lord shall be your confidence…. 8)35 ….Shame is the highest rank conferred on self-confident….SELF confident….SELF CONFIDENT…… FOOLS!: :o

I believe this demarcates the line between those selected for the first resurrection and those for the White Throne. I believe it is all centred upon …as Shakespeare wrote….”to be” (My free will, my choices, my life my self esteem…) or “not to be” (God as Sovereign, God as the potter, my life not my own as in the recognition that  my self-esteem, self confidence is as my old man to be taken off, set aside and shunned.)
 Ie…Self-esteem is the carnal flesh mind
        Christ-esteem, Christ dependence is freedom.

Personally, I believe the world system is not only  teaching but is also supported both clinically, psychologically and on the play fields where we send our children to acquire an education…in a. covert soul toxic,  mind convoluting and heart hardening teaching of  …..SELF ESTEEM. (Self confidence!)  Self esteem is for me the most undercover, disguised heresy of the world that has wide support from the wise of the world (Education and medical systems). ….it is a comfort to know what God thinks about the wisdom of the world….it is a comfort… a plain and straight pathway for those He drags out of the world.

Marie I like the scripture that rose up in you that you quoted and  the experiences you shared. Isaiah 26 : 3 You will guard him and keep him in perfect and constant peace whose mind, both its inclination and it’s character is stayed on You, because he commits himself to You, leans on You, and hopes confidently in You.  Vs 12 Lord, You will ordain peace, God’s favour and blessings, for us, for You have also wrought in us and for us all OUR works.”

LOF part 6...

EVERY thought, EVERY word, EVERY deed, that proceeds out of the heart and mind of man is HIS WORKS!


The power of God is more powerful than the error of free will. We know that Christ has overcome the world with all its errors and all persons in which free will is still a God. We who are privileged to see this, to hear this and believe this, are way off the world systems radar screen…WAY OFF……and to those more highly favoured and blessed….way out too!

Peace to you all

Arcturus :)


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MG

  • Guest
Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2006, 04:18:14 PM »

Quote
Is it your understanding that man has not the ability to think, speak, feel, love or hate on his/her own accord?

I can only speak for myself Darren.

Think

I have PTSD caused by much stress and trauma in my life. My thoughts are caught in a constant loop of hyper alert to danger even though the danger is non existent. I live with automatic thoughts that a person would have in the middle of a war zone. I can't change it or think differently. If I had free choice concerning my thoughts I would not think this way. It causes me great pain.

I am often self absorbed because of my constant suffering. It's all I can do to endure my own mind. I would not continue to think this way if I had free choice. I would take every thought in captivity for the glory of God if I could. I would think on only those things which are good and lovely if I could. If I had the choice.

I think constantly on the truths of God. I've studied thousands of hours. I still can't grasp some truths. It doesn't matter how hard I try. If my thinking could get me there I would know all the truth by now. I can't know these truths unless God reveals them to me.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

I can't renew my own mind. I would have done that by now if I had the choice. I've tried harder than anyone I know. My thoughts were caused by events in my life that were out of my control. Rape, suicide, witnessing a plane crash with 180 dead, and then PTSD. My children were both tortured without my knowledge and my son is an alcoholic. All added stress to my PTSD and theirs. Now my grandson is plagued with thoughts of depression due to constant migraines. I think I would die if I thought that God was the kind of God who just stood by and watched his children tortured by evil without causing all of it for my good and their good. Satan may be the ruler of this world, but if you remember in Job he had to ask permission for everything he did.

I have no free will with my thoughts. I would be happy if I did. I would not suffer every day if I had free choice. It will take an outside cause to change my thoughts.
  

feel

I cried in pain for at least 20 years every single day. The emotional damage was also caused by outside events. I tried everything to find healing for my pain. I couldn't find it. One day I was crying and feeling intense pain and I told a friend that I had tried everything possible and the pain would not go away. Instantly I  had a ton of emotional pain lifted from me by God's hand. He spent the next 5 years healing my emotional damage. I witnessed 5 years of miracles within me. I could not change the way I felt. I had no free choice to feel the way I wanted to feel. I still don't. I am no longer in emotional pain, but I can't feel happy. I can't feel joy. If I had a choice I would feel these wonderful things. It will take a miracle from God to bring any kind of joy in my life. I do not have the choice to choose that for myself.

love or hate

I struggled for years with my mother. I would visit her and feel such resentment and then such guilt. I would do everything humanly possible to hold it in and be overly nice to her. It would overwhelm me at times. A few years ago I told God that I tried everything to heal my mother's and my relationship and I just couldn't do it. I asked him to heal us before my mother died. She is 85 today. After that day I've had the most loving relationship with my mother. God did heal our relationship. I am able to love her without resentment and I've received love from her that didn't exist before that time. I can now say that my mother loves me and I don't resent her any longer. I did not have the choice to cause that. I know I have no choice. Every time I went over to visit I told myself I wasn't going to let it bother me and every time I left with guilt and resentment. Now I leave with a warm feeling of being loved.

I don't know how to love others as God loves me because I haven't been able to experience God's love for me. God is love and if I'm not filled with that love and that joy I can't possibly love others. I can love them with human love, but that's not real love.

So I sit here knowing that I don't have free choice. I should not even believe at all after everything I've been through. The faith that God gave me rules over anything else and I must go forward. I have no choice. When Jesus called the fisherman and tax collector they instantly dropped everything and followed him. Peter follow me. He dropped the net and followed. Matthew follow me. He dropped the money and followed. They left their families. They left their homes. They left their life and lost their lives.

I'm sorry for rambling. Just one more thought. I went 6 months once with very little food. The kids and I ate top ramen, beans and rice for 6 months. I would have chosen chicken, but there was no chicken. If I choose to drink coffee in the morning it is because I have coffee. The cause of the choice is the availability of the thing that I think I'm choosing.

I don't look at it like being on a  CD. I look at it as if we are a living, written expression of God's love.

2 Corinthians 3
 1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

 4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

A child in the womb does not have a choice of how he/she develops. There is a written code that makes each of us individuals with unique gifts and personalities. What choice does an unborn baby have? We are being conceived.


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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Our Path and God's Sovereignty
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2006, 04:30:09 PM »

Hi Kat :)

Just quoting something that Ray wrote:

"God intends for men to go against His will (that's how men become lost so that God can then save them), but no one, absolutely NO ONE, has ever gone against God's INTENTION! Hey, don't get angry with me - I'm just quoting the Scriptures."

This is not hard to believe when one realizes that without God they are nothing and that for even their breath they should be thankful. But did you see what Ray say's; that God intends men to break his will. Gosh I must be missing something here. It is either God will that men go against it or not. If he intended it then he willed it. Why can we not also say that God willed Satan to pull many away from God. Is this not true? Why can we not give credit to Satan for keeping so many away from the truth and blinding them with the material things of this world.

Ray also quoted Paul:

Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

I find the word "in" to be pivotable in this verse.

Strongs 1722 en {en}

1) in, by, with etc.

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2800
AV - in 1902,
       by 163,
       with 140,
       among 117,
       at 113,
       on 62,
       through 39,
       misc 264; 2800

This is a wonderful verse. :)  For Paul acknowledges that we are God's own children, his very offspring. For we livin in him; our every action is in/through God, for he is the center of our very being. He allows me to move my body with Love instead out of hate as Satan would have us do. Have we any idea how thankful we should be :)

Does this make sense, anyone?

Love,
Darren
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