> General Discussions
I wish that someone could help me with this.
YellowStone:
This iis an interesting discussion and I find the answers very gratifying.
Just to pick up what Pax wrote, (at least I hope too) and John 10:30 I and my Father are one. They are one inthe same manner a husband and wife a one.
Neither claims eminence over the other although Jesus did state: for my Father is greater than I. (Jhn 14:28)
It also becomes clearer when one realizes that because Jehovah of the OT and Jesus of the NT are one and the same, then no human has ever come in contact with the father, one on one. To my knowledge the Father has ever spoken to man so that man could physically hear.
So this would leave us with the fact that Jehovah / Christ were the only ones who ever spoke, and this aligns very well with the following Scripture:
Jhn 1:1
* In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jehovah / Christ was God spoken word. Does this make sense?
If I am wrong, then please forgive me and point me in the right direction. :)
Thanks,
Darren
Pax Vobiscum:
Actually, I understand the initial question to be more about the suggestion that in the OT Jehovah speaks of other gods. My understanding of some of these answers deal with the divinity of Jesus.
When Yahweh suggests other gods in the OT, He is speaking of other distinct gods -- not necessarily emanations from Himself.
If this topic stays active, I promise a more complete and readable contribution to the discussion.
Peace
TimothyVI:
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I was afraid that no one would respond.
Thanks Joe for all you have given me to study. I downloaded all of the conference audios.
That took all afternoon. But I will listen to them this week.
So far I feel like a complete idiot, because the light still hasn't come on. I still see
Jesus and our Father as two completely, distinctly different entities.
I and my Father are one is referring to being one in belief and purpose, not one person.
So that doesn't help me with all of the scriptures where Jesus, Jehovah commanded us
to have no other Gods before Him.
Thanks for your input Pax. It is not that I am not satisfied with the answers that I have been
given so far. Believe me, I am thrilled that I was not ignored again. It is just that I am still not
able to rest easy in my understanding of the command of Jesus to worship no other god.
That was the reason that trinitarians had to come up with the theory that all three were really just one
co-equal God. That way they could still worship only one God.
I know that there were many other Gods during that time. I know that God commanded us to
not worship those gods. But the commands also seemed to include our Father in the restriction
because the people of the old testament knew nothing of the Father.
Darren, what you said is starting to make some sense to me. Jehovah knew that none of the other gods being worshipped during that time were our Father. So he had no reason to command us to not worship Him, just all of the other gods.
I think that Pax might have been saying something very similar. I just didn't catch it.
HMMMM, lots to think about tonight.
Thank you all very much.
Tim
Kat:
Hi Tim,
This subject is very hard for me to explain,
so I found this in Ray's Trinity article that really has this nailed down.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------------------------------
A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!
Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!
Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.
In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!
And again:
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."
Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.
And again:
"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).
Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?
There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).
There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
stego:
Wow i never knew that Jesus Christ is Lord but is not God! Prior to just now i had always interpreted
--- Quote ---I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
--- End quote ---
to mean Jesus is God. That's crazy how long i've been under this false impression, even after being on this site for quite awhile now. Thanks Kat for enlightening me!
Sean
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version