> General Discussions
kill or don't kill - does God change?
Sorin:
I understand the difference between kill and murder as Ray pointed out, but I still don't see how 'smite them' versus 'love your enemies' is not God changing His mind. I mean in the OT he used the Jews to kill off many Gentile nations, smite every male and even to take their virgin women for themselves, now we are told to not even look at a woman to lust after her.
This is an email I sent Ray, and I understand he is too busy to completely answer so I decided to ask you guys now.
Dear Ray,
>
> I was hoping you can shed some light on this. I just don't see how God
> changes not.
> I mean the God of the OT seems alot meaner than the God of the NT.
> Infact they're so different they seem like two totally different Gods.
>
> Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou
> shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
>
>
> Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that
> is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself
> [rape]; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy
> God hath given thee.
>
>
> Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off
> from thee, which [are ] not of the cities of these nations.
>
>
> Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth
> give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that
> breatheth:
>
>
> Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and
> the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the
> Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
>
>
> How do you connect this with
>
>
> Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
> kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
>
> Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery [killing the males, and
> taking their women unto thyself is commiting both murder and adultery], Thou
> shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal [taking the spoil is stealing], Thou
> shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any
> other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou
> shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
>
>
>
> and
>
> Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
> do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
> and persecute you;
>
> Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
> which hate you,
>
>
> Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
> again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the
> Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
>
>
>
> I thought God changes not, but apperantly He doe s change. Not just from OT
> to the NT, but also in the OT it'sself , "smite them, thou shalt not kill".
> I'm confused.
>
> I understand that God is God and He does as He pleases, He can create life
> and He can kill it and there's nothing we can do about it anymore than
> there's something we can do about being born or not, but when He tells us to
> 'smite them, take the women unto thyself' then says 'thou shalt not kill,
> thou shalt not commit adultery/rape' I just don't see how He 'Changes not'
> and how that isn't contradictory one to the other.
>
> I mean He gave some permission to kill and commit adultery, then tells us to
> not even think it, or look at a woman to lust after her rather, and to turn
> the other cheek.
>
> I'm confused.
>
> Take care,
> Sorin
Dear Sorin:
God killed all the children in the flood, and all the children of Sodom, and all the children
of Gomorrah. And Who do you suppose was responsible for the Twin Tower collapse that
killed a few thousand? "Is there evil in the city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Amos 3:6).
Revelation tells us that Jesus is going to return to "MAKE WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS."
We look at God destroying children as something done to "innocent" people. But they are not
all that innocent. It was the "innocent" children of Sodom that a generation later werfe the adults
which God had to destroy. The commandment was to "Not MURDER," as opposed to no kill.
This is way too big a subject fo an email, however. I simply cannot continue to answer essay
type questions such as this seeing that I receive TENS OF THOUSANDS of emails. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
rrammfcitktturjsp:
Sorin,
If I may answer this without having to go and look up the Scripture. I understand the confusion that you are now facing with this question. I will try my best to offer my two cents.
When God ordered Mass nations to be killed there were many good reasons that he did this. 1. He did this to keep the Jewish people pure, but they disobeyed in not eliminating all the pagan nations such as the Phillistines and they haunted and were a thorn in Israel's Flesh. When God ordered such things he did this to purify and only did it when there was no recourse. When a Nation refuses to acknowledge God we see several things happen - There is a chapter in Deutronomy that lists all the blessings and curses of Israel if they should choose to obey God or Not. These curses serve as a punishment but had one purpose - to redirect and focus people's attention to God. These served as a turning back. Notice that many times that God used mercy and this was a last resort.
When Ninevah for the first time truly repented becuase of Jonah's message, God did not smite their nation as he was planning to do. Sodom and Gomorrah were so evil and so unrepentant that they had to be wiped off the face of the earth.
If you remember before the Israelites and I believe it is in Genesis where the Lord says that Jacob's sons and daughter will go to Eygypt for a time becuase the sins of the native people living in Canaan had not yet reached full measure. In this God showed them mercy, yet in the end when the Israelites were taking over the promised land, they were beyond repentance.
I am in agreeance with Ray. Maybe you others can find these Scriptural references. Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
DWIGHT:
Dear Sorin,
The literal scriptures are almost too much for us. Killings, rapes, murders etc., etc. But remember that Ray has told us that the bible is a great parable. And the first principal for us in understanding His word is; first comes the natural and then comes the spiritual. The first Adam was natural and the last Adam is spiritual. The old man, who is carnal, is natural; the new man, is spiritual. The scriptures are examples, metaphors and parables and they represent the whole picture of God's purpose. God wants children and God wants His children to be just like Him. He is very jealous over us. The old testament was us under the law. Death reigned in us and the law made us guilty. God wanted no part of us under the law of sin and death. He wants to kill all of the old in us and have us entirely to Himself in newness.
It is impossible to understand this with our old (man) mind. God has abolished the old; murdered it, killed it, ground it to powder. And now, through His Son has nailed it (all the old) to His cross. Therefore, in God's mind, all is new in Him. The old is gone and all is new.
Today, God is still murdering our old man with all its carnality and wickedness. Paul said, "I die daily.....we are buried with Him." Think of the scriptures as God and you. The old testament is the old you; carnal, wicked, lost under the condemnation of the law, dead in your sins. The new testament is the new you; being saved, under grace, no condemnation because your now in Christ. Old things are passing away and behold all thing are becoming new.
I hope this helps a little.
In His love,
Dwight
Pax Vobiscum:
At the risk of being censured....
This is one of the most... um.... incomplete answers I have ever seen from Ray.
In this world where the slightest hint of subtlety is transformed into a "spiritual truth" inerrant, one is left wondering how to handle entries in the Bible which are in opposition to each other. I am afraid, dear friends, that there are many, many examples.
But back to the issue.
A theology of good questions is much more profound than a theology of weak answers. I speak now more globally rather than of brother Ray specifically. If we convince ourselves (insert the debate on free will here, btw) that the Bible is 1) The sole written authority of God almighty; 2) is complete as compiled between 200-1600 CE (insert the debate on original texts here, btw); and 3) an anthology ordained of God whose books are to be used to cross-reference each other at will (there's that word again!); then we are in a terrible position to answer such a profound question as Mr. Sorin submits. Actually, as a nod to Sorin's post, I believe he is asking for a comment on an observation rather than an answer to an unanswerable question.
We are painted into a theological corner: We must formulate an answer that is 1) from the Bible; 2) as published and accepted by people who think a certain way; and 3) can withstand Biblical cross-referencing the likes of which can only be compared to a graduate-level thesis (another nod to Sorin for not mentioning the OT laws governing who is to be killed for some pretty tame behaviors -- that would be too easy).
So we are left with: 1) It is a mystery (my favorite -- at times) 2) The modern Bible has been miscommunicated, mistranslated, mistreated, misdirected, etc... and God only knows what the "original" text said -- but it must be inerrant -- so it only seems like a contradiction; and/or 3) The words attributed to OT and NT prophets are on par with the message attributed to Jesus; and the weakest most spiritually demeaning answer of them all: 4) Oh, if you could only look past the words and read them like I, then you might be given the eyes to see with that I have, you poor soul!
Personally, I will stick to the words of Jesus which have stood the test of time, everytime, all the time.
I leave much of our current debates alone so that I will have something to talk about when I get to heaven.
Peace
rrammfcitktturjsp:
Pax V.,
Thanks for sharing this. Thanks for being bold to share your opinion on Ray. You shared a great thing to do, Fall back on the words of Jesus. Life is so simple when we do this and yet I find myself having to complicate matters. Thanks for posting.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version