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Free Will is an Oxymoron.
Phazel:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 11, 2007, 12:22:53 PM ---Hi Sorin,
The way I look at it is, we are accountable because we actually are the one doing it.
God may have caused all the circumstances, but He did not take controll of us and make us do it.
He has given us the means to carry out the physical actions on our own.
Not decide them on our own, but carry them out on our own.
So since we actually do them, we are held accountable, because the actions were done by us.
Does that help any?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Possibly our accountability applies only to the fact that we are individuals and are the ones needing to be fixed.
I've really been praying over this wanting to understand the truth.
Lets take a computer program. Lets say I write code and it is designed to give an error message for the purpose of learning how a good computer program should not operate. I execute the program and it gives the error message as it was designed. I am responsible for that error message, I do not hold the computer program responsible. However, the computer program still needs fixed so that it will not give an error. So I have to understand that I have to change (reconcile) the computer program. I can be held responsible for the faulty computer program, I also am responsible for fixing it. However, it still is the individual priogram that I have to change.
I think we take our carnal thinking and continue to relate our accountability to blame. We are not to blame, but it is still us that needs fixed nevertheless.
I think I get it now, or at least till I think about it more and my head explodes once again.
The Lake of Fire FIXES the computer program. :)
YellowStone:
Sorin,
Here is the post between me and Ray about this very subject. :)
I wrote in response to Rays response (below):
Oh Ray,
I do not only believe, but I ALSO KNOW that God is Sovereign and that man does NOT have a Free Will
You actually answered my question (and to this I am VERY grateful)
You state: (Ray)
By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS.
Ray this is all I wanted to know. I am so glad that you say that we are more than CD's
That we can "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., because man is capable of all these things.
I do apologize for causing you any grief, but please know that I have wrestled for a very long time on this very subject and your words echo the very words given me by God, exactly!!!
You have made my day my dear brother. We are on the same page.
WOW!! I'm more than a CD, WhooHoo!!
You have lifted such a huge weight off of my shoulders, thanks be to God.
Love,
Darren
Ray wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Darren:
I'm sorry, Darren, but your arguments are too superficial to even debate. By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS. And I have 120 pages of Scriptural explanations of this on my site: "The Myth of Free Will Exposed." I know that you don't "approve" of God being Soverign, and you don't "approve" of man not having a free will, but that's just the way it is, and you will have to live with it.
God be with you,
Ray
PS Darren, dominos do not have minds, and emotions, and creativity!! Your analogies are foolish.
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I hope this helps,
Love,
Darren
Sorin:
kitty,
My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.
Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.
We are not at liberty to choose to not do something anymore than a window is at liberty to choose to not shatter after [the cause] a rock has been thrown through it.
Do you now understand what I'm asking here?
Take care,
Sorin
Phazel:
--- Quote from: Sorin on January 11, 2007, 01:28:42 PM ---kitty,
My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.
Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.
Do you now understand what I'm asking here?
Take care,
Sorin
--- End quote ---
You may be questioning the word accountable in perspective to "punishment".
Regaurdless of that take a look at yourself (not saying this in a judgmental way) you feel, you are aware, etc etc.
There is no doubting that we are aware, there is no doubting that we make choices.
However are you perfect? I am not.
What can make you perfect?
You also can take the perspective of bible translations. It is well known that often a translation uses the closest word in that language. I could be wrong about that but I have read at times our english concepts often do not have an exact word to describe that in anothwer language.
That said. We are only accountable in the perspective of needing to be made perfect. Regaurdless of Gods responsibility he still has to do something to us to make us perfect.
Our individuality makes us accountable to be fixed by God.
It has taken me a long time to get this far, be patient.
John:
I know that Ray writes the papers on Free Will and we have them to refer to, but here on the forum is where the rubber meets the road sort of, and I for one always need these types of posts and replies to refresh my extremely limited understanding of NO FREE WILL. Its like this for me...Oh, ok I get,...I got it....I understand it and see how it works now.....ooops I had it ??? . I greatly appreciate everyone’s input for these kinds of topics.
Peace,
John
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