> General Discussions
Resurrection of the Dead
hillsbororiver:
Hi Rob,
Of course with God all things are possible but Paul gives us an indication of what God's plan is, was and will be;
Those of the Old Covenant are not under the promise of the New Covenant which truly began at the cross but really manifested and came to be alive at Pentecost. Here is what Paul says about the men of faith, the men of old, the Prophets and Patriarchs.
Hebrews 11
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
I hope this helps a bit.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
gmik:
Thanks for the 3 groups-2 endings visual. Makes sense.
yes, a good thread.
gena
Kat:
Hi Rob,
Here an email from Ray, it is about is exact subject.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html ---patriarchs
Teaching Ray
« on: May 23, 2006, 08:20:13 AM »
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Of course. Soloman was the wisest man ever to grace the face of the earth except for Jesus Christ. Men of the Old Testament were saved just as we of the New Testament times are. We are saved through faith, just as Abraham was. As we look back in History to Christ, the men of the Old Testament looked forward in the future to Christ. The sacrifices that were made did not save man, they were really just a putting off of sin until Christ did come. All throughout the Old Testament God revealed Christ through prophecy. The tabernacle, and all of its surroundings, furniture, priestly robes, etc. all picture Christ in some way. The alter represents Christ's sacrificial death, the laver represents Him as the living water and cleanser of our sin. The Table of shewbread, bread of Life. Candlestick- light of the world. Incens e alter- our Great High Priest and intercessor. Mercy seat- merciful God. Manna- Jesus again as the Bread of Life and our sustenance, our Spiritual sustenance. Yes, Soloman knew about Christ. Did he know His name was to be Jesus, a form of the name Joshua? No. Men of the old testament knew Him as Immanuel, the Son of The Most High God. Do not think me ignorant, I am not trying to put you down or attack you. I am only trying to pursuade you to study your Bible spiritually as well as logically. Dave
Dear Dave:
Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.
What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing! And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:18). Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ. "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes. Are we 'saved by faith?' NO--'By GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8. Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life? NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).
Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins? NO. No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']" (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).
Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?' Answer: "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN H-I-M [JESUS]" (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.
Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Rob
You asked : can anyone reading this posting, say for a certainty that they are for sure part of a very elect few who will attain to the first resurrection and rulership with Christ?
If you take the term “saved” as referring to the Elect few, then you might be able to comprehend that your question is very adeptly answered in the following.
Enjoy! :D
"You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"[Jesus was the Master of Scathing Sarcasm]
Where you find "saved" or "HAS saved," it usually has reference to someone whom Jesus healed, rather than spiritual salvation into the Kingdom of God. A few times we find the phrase: "ARE saved." This, however, is not telling us WHEN we are saved, but rather HOW we "ARE saved." (Scripturally we "are saved" by hope, grace, and the gospel).
Although Eph. 2:8 tells us that, "By grace ARE ye saved through faith…" This is a statement of HOW we get saved—by grace, those in the past "are saved," those living now "are saved" by grace WHEN they get saved, and those in the future also "are saved" by grace (as opposed to some other means). A very few King James renderings such as I Cor. 1:18 & II Cor. 2:15 should also read, "are BEING saved" (as it is in the Greek), whereas II Tim. 1:9 & Titus 3:5 should read, "SAVES us [an ongoing process]."
And so the Scriptural truth of this matter is, no one is saved (in the past tense) in this life without "enduring unto the END." Else it would make no sense at all for Paul to state:
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be A CASTAWAY [Gk: ‘disqualified]" (I Cor. 9:27)
if he were ALREADY SAVED (past tense) at the time he made the statement.
The Scriptures are loaded with this principle:
"Therefore I endure [presently he ‘endures’] all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain [future] the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (II Tim. 2:10).
Jesus taught that the seed that fell on the stony ground did ‘endure for a time,’ but since it had not deep root, the cares of this world caused it to ‘wither away.’ Is it not clear that we must 'endure unto the END’ to be saved?
And Paul absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that NO ONE is saved (in the past tense) IN THIS LIFE. Here is why:
"For we are saved BY HOPE: [also by "grace," and "the gospel,"] but hope that is seen [seen as a fact, as in, ‘I am already saved’] is NOT HOPE: for what a man sees, why does he YET HOPE FOR [it]? But if we hope for that we see not [is not a fulfilled fact as yet] then do we with PATIENCE [perseverance] WAIT FOR IT" (Rom. 8:24-25).
It should be obvious to all that there is no need whatsoever to "patiently WAIT" for something that we already have. What a horrible lie and heresy the Church teaches on this most important subject, by deceiving billions into thinking they can be saved by mouthing a 20 second prayer!
It is absolutely useless to call Jesus, "LORD, LORD…" in a 20 second sinner’s prayer or in any other way, unless you are ready to follow the rest of our Lord’s admonition, "…and do not THE THINGS WHICH JESUS SAYS" (Luke 6:46). I could go on for fifty more pages on this one theme, but it’s time I bring this to a close. Unquote
…………………………………………………………………………………………
So the answer to your question can anyone reading this posting, say for a certainty that they are for sure part of a very elect few who will attain to the first resurrection and rulership with Christ? Is, NO…I certainly hope not in this Forum! To assume or profess election is to reveal ignorance of God’s word and arrogance before God’s power!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
whatslifeallabout:
Thanks for the insights and thoughts shared in response to my own. I am indeed new to the forum, but have very much enjoyed reading over a lot the discussions as well as Ray's articles.
Someone mentioned that Ray's health was in danger - how is he doing now, can anyone say?
Someone also said that Ray's teachings were available on audio on the Internet -- where is that, can someone tell me?
Warmly,
Rob :)
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