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Resurrection of the Dead
vic:
Hello Arcturus,
I am deeply sadenned to see how discouraging you are in stating dogmatically that one cannot know if we are saved or not.
There are so many scriptures that show exactly who is saved and who is not. 1 Cor 15 is one of the most eye opening books on this subject to those who doubt.
v 1 and 2, ... in which you stand -present tense, . v2 By which you are saved a present condition "saved".
Please read it right through several times.
If you are called of God, John 6:44-66. If you believe as Abraham did Gen 15:6 and build faith (the first good work or fruit of belief), if you understand and repent
and are baptized, you will receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Just like those to whom Peter preached to on the day of Pentecost. Read Acts 2. note especially v36 - 47.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as s hould be saved.
When you are saved and have the gift of the Spirit you will have the fruits of the Spirit in your life, Gal 5:16 "Walk in the Spirit, , and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Gal 5 :22-26.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Gen 15 : 5 and 6
It is thropuggh Abraham's belief and faith that we are saved.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
To be part of the elect we must become Abraham's seed. Gal 3 : 24 , justified by faith,
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (that is present tense we are "now")
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
How are we made of the body of Christ (a Spiritual Body) How do we put on Christ by having become "being" heirs.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If we are given God's Spirit ad remain faithful, WE WILL BE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
If we have not the Spirit we are none off his.
Many mi apply heb 11:39 not understanding what the "promise" was. The Promise was our redeemer Christ.
Until Christ came and estanblished the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God on the day of Pentecost, they could only have
"the promise" of Christ coming to reddem all mankind Jn 3:16.
v40 "They without us" is not saying that they should not be made perfect, tbut that both they and us shall be made perfect.
They because of the promise and we because of that promise having been fulfilled in Christ.
Until Christ came they only had faith in his coming, The promise could not be fulfilledtil that wonderous event occured.
the answer to the question is easy and clear.
If you have God's spirit you are saved - If you have not His Spirit you are not saved.
Read Rom 8, several times and be led and guided by God's Spirit,
v 2 Free from the law of sin and death v 8 they thsat are in the flesh cannot please God.
v14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Son of God NOW.
I urge you to have the faith of God and truly believe that it the Gift of the Spirit that saves us and that saving happened , from the moment we received that Gift.
Vic.
Kat:
Hi Vic,
I have found these emails from Ray, to show that we are not saved in this life, but for the elect it will be at the first resurrection, the rest in the lake of fire judgment.
We can not know for sure we will be faithful, until we have been faithful.
We are baptized into Christ's death, and water baptism is of no value, the apostles no longer baptized after they came to understand it was a spiritual baptism.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=109.msg393#msg393 -----------------
Dear Daryn:
You question is: Why does God call many but only choose a few? Because there is much greater learning to be gained by the way God is doing it.
We need to thoroughly understand why the many called will not be in the Kingdom of God. We are to rely completely and totally on God for our salvation. The many called rely on their own blasphemous, free-will sovereignty over God. They believe that they can either make or brake God, all according to how they will exercise their own fabled "free will."
Those who are in the first resurrection have been totally purged of any such blasphemy. God determines how deeply He wants His Sons and Daughters to understand these spiritual truths before they are accepted into His Kingdom. Even Paul had no guarantee that he would be saved regardless of how he either obeyed or did not obey until the very end. Yet, "All is of God."
God be with you,
Ray
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1345.0.html ------------------
Anyway, so you believe that I Pet. 1:9 contradicts the dozens of SCRFIPTURES that I have used to prove that we do not receive salvation in this lifetime?
Okay, let's read the NIV on this matter:
"Praise be to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ in His great mercy He as given us new birth into a living HOPE [See Rom. 8:24-25 for a definition of 'hope.' If we already possess salvation in THIS LIFE, there is no need to 'hope' for it] throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU [given to us while we are alive in this lifetime? NO! 'kept in heaven for you.'] who through faith are shielded by God's power UNTIL [do you know what the word 'until' means?] the coming of the salvation [oh! it is yet 'coming?' It is not YET here in this lifetime, is it?] that is ready to be revealed in the LAST TIME [in our time? NO, in the 'last time." In OUR lifetime? NO, in the 'last time']. In this you greatly rejoice, though NOW FOR A LITTLE WHILE you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of traials [which we will NOT suffer when we are 'SAVED']. These have come so that your faith[faith is the assurance of things HOPED FOR, not the POSESSION OF THINGS ALREADY ACQUIRED, Heb. 11:1] of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor WHEN JESUS CHRIST IS REVEALED [in THIS lifetime? NO, 'when Jesus Christ is revealed'--in His Presence, I John 3:1-3]. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; nd evn thoug you do not see Him NOW, you believe in Him and are filled an inexpressilbe and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls [in the FUTURE, at His Presence, etc., etc., etc.]."
Hope this helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
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http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#nothing *--------------------------------------
But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and not AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES
... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Vic
I do not belong in any institutionalised church of man. I know I have been dragged out. I did not choose of my own understanding or desire to come out of Mystery Babylon. I use to prefer the garlic and onions! Milk and honey seemed bland and not tangy like Egyptian paganism, but not anymore. My tastes have been changed!
By grace through faith I have been booted out of the Synagogues I wanted to stay in. My errors have been revealed to me through God’s goodness and as a result I have been chastised, humiliated and pained into repentance for following after heretical vain teachings of spiritual idolatry. I have been turned back to God. This is something that is beyond debate, agreement or opinion. Whether I will stay turned back to God is for God alone to know and for me to find out in the very near future.
I trust that I am in the body of Christ because I have come out of Mystery Babylon and no longer participate in any share of her sins or the plagues that will come upon her. What I do not yet know is whether or not Christ is going to spit me out of his body via His mouth because of being neither hot or cold. How Jesus sees me only He alone knows. By the time He comes for me will HE find in me warm, coy cosy and fuzzy or either hot or cold?
When HE comes again will I be part of the very little faith that Christ finds when He comes again? I do not know because I have not passed out of my tests yet. I am still in a carnal body subject to failure, weakness and liability to temptations. Heb 4 : 15 DO you still have weaknesses, infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptations Vic?
I am still being refined in trials and tribulations. When Jesus comes again….you do know and agree that He is coming again don’t you Vic.?…anyway, when He comes again I hope He will find that I am not warm cosy and fuzzy but either hot or cold so I do not have to be spat out of His body via His mouth..
Rev 3 : 16 So because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth! 17 For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I AM IN NEED OF NOTHING; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked.
So for me being in the body of Christ is no guarantee that I will or can remain in the body of Christ. Will I make the grade? Only He knows because it is His work and only when He comes again for me, will that work be completed and then I too will know if I am to join those who gnash their teeth or whether I will hear my King say to me, well done! I am not leaning on my own understanding Vic. Maybe you think that is a lukewarm faithless thing to do but I on the other hand believe that complacency and enticement into believing that salvation is a done deal at the cross, or when in my little mind or upon my understanding I think I believe - which is heresy to say the least.
Now I do realize that you may not have an idea of what I am getting at here but I will say it anyway. I am not saved by faith but by HIS decree that is by Grace through faith, which is a gift, not my right or my claim or by what I think I have been given in advance. I have been the prodigal son. I have wasted my inheritance and I am on my way home with nothing…no claims, no rights no wild and fancy beliefs that I deserve anything but a thrashing and delegation to servants quarters. I know my Father loves me though and I can’t wait to get into His arms of Love again. :D
So for now I am going to hold fast and not let any man made doctrines take my hope in Christ away because for me He comes again ….which is in the FUTURE and is not yet come and He comes againto bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him. Heb 9 : 28
For me Vic, Jesus Christ is still coming. I see the signs and so I have to stand apart from and separate to the opinions and views you addressed to me. I hope you will forgive me.
His peace to you
Arcturus :)
Kat:
Hi Rob,
On the first page you will see 'Introductions and Announcements'
Click on that and you will see 'Ray's audio downloads.'
As for his health, I would say he's doing pretty good right now :)
Hi Arcturus,
That was very eloqculately put.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
DWIGHT:
Dear Vic,
Please take these posts in the spirit that they are given. We all are seeking the truth in love and in spirit. The "assurance of salvation" doctrine originated from Christianity and not from the Scriptures. All the verses that you quoted are either in the aeorist or future tense in the greek. Vic, I understand what you must be thinking, but those doctrines that we were taught in Christianity have only blinded us from the very truths that God has clearly spoken in His word. It is true that if you walk in spirit that you have the Spirit of God; but only One has ever completley done that. In our walk with the Lord, are we not chastised and have many trials and temptations? Why, so that we CAN BE (future) perfect and holy and without spot toward our Lord at His coming.
We will all be saved, eventually, but not all will be in the first resurrection. Perhaps, that is what you were talking about. I'm sure that is what Arcturus is talking about. I hope this helps.
Love in His grace,
Dwight
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