Baptism

[pahupke]

Hi Everyone!

I truly enjoy Ray's site and reading as many of your posts as I can. Thanks to all for being here......

I have one quick question for now. What does Ray, and what do you say, about baptism. I'm referring more to adult baptism at this point. I know I saw something on Ray's site in regards to this, but by the life of me I can not find it now. There is a discussion going on among some friends of mine about this subject. He's "born again", and is considering being baptized. I see nothing wrong with this if he wants to. My problem is that he seems to be really a bit too insistent that  his teenage daughter does it too. I don't normally get involved, but I was asked about it, and I feel that it is totally a personal choice and that if she does not feel she should, or she needs to, than that's her choice....Anyway, that's the background. I am in the process of looking up verses in the Bible to show him that it is not nessarry (sorry, I know I blew it on that spelling.) I also thought I would come here to  see what you guys had to say.....

Thanks in advance.....And have a wonderful day!!!

Pattie

[shibboleth]

All I can say is, I was sprinkled once, and dunked twice. Now I realize the church was substituting a physical ordinance for a spiritual one. Although I felt something when I was baptized, it never lasted. I was always trying to get that feeling back. But God isn't about a feeling, or a physical act, he is about spirit and truth. I have been baptized in the spirit of truth and my communion is the bread and wine of Christ, not a little wafer and thimble of juice.
First the physical, then the spiritual

[orion77]

God looks for people who worship in spirit and truth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.  Love, patience, long suffering, meekness, kindness, humility, praise and thankfulness are the things we should be looking to do.  Any type of physical ordinance, is just that, a type or a shadow.  

They point to the one who matters, Jesus.  Nothing wrong with being baptized, but when we think that is what saves us or any of the many other rituals, we are drawing water out of a dry well.  I can do nothing of my ownself, it's all about Him.  Those words in the above sentence run rampant throughout the whole of Gods word.  Spiritual truth, love for God and our neighbor is what it's all about.

God bless,

Gary

[worm]

Hey Pahupke,
below some Scripture that helped me...

I've come to realise that Jesus Himself was baptized...He insisted on it...Jesus' party (the disciples) baptized in the presence of Jesus...Jesus also gave his disciples an order to preach the Gospel and baptize people...water is also one of the "witnesses" on earth together with "blood" and "the Spirit"...and all three agree as one

I know there's a feeling amongst many brothers that water baptism is carnal and serves no purpose...yes, if its just some empty ritual I agree...but the Spiritual significance that goes with it is special...as it becomes a witness of our repentance from sin, our burial with Christ and our rising as new creatures...

John the Baptist said that he was baptizing with water but One will come who who will baptize with the Holy Spirit...yes, too true...but Jesus and his followers did both...AND Jesus also RECEIVED both...
also, people were baptized in water AFTER they have received the Holy Spirit

Paul did not baptize...he said that his mission was to preach the gospel...but Paul was accompanied by many other disciples of Christ...he doesn't say that his companions didn't baptize...

my wife and I have been baptized three years ago...and since God has revealed many Spiritual truths to us, personally and through the teachings of people like Ray and Mike and many others...

but my race is not run...I had to reach a few milestones on my journey in order get where I'm at...of which baptism was just one just as the realisation of sin through the Law and many others known as "first principles of the doctrine of Christ" were...I couldn't stomach "the meat" then, I HAD to drink milk before...and now looking back some things might look silly and carnal yes, but it was part of the journey to deeper Spirituality...we don't become Spiritual beings all at once...it is a process (a race like Paul said)

seek earnestly the Lord's answer on this :wink:

Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ac 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1Jo 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jo 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Mt 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mr 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

1Co 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Mt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Joh 3:22
After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

Joh 4:1
Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

Joh 4:2
(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

[hillsbororiver]

Here is an e-mail to Ray with his reply,


I want to know what you know or teach on water baptism? I have been going through some of the articles that The Divine Plan has.

I am a former World Wide Church Of God member that has been really mixed up with different teachings. Everybody has different teachings.

So far you seem to have what I Think is a closer teaching what the Word of GOD is saying... Your articles have very helpful to me.

THANKS.  

P.S. I'll be keeping in touch

[Ray Replies]

Thank you for your email and question.

I don't have the time to write an whole article on the subject in an email. One day I will do that and post it on my site. But in a nut shell:  

Paul tells us that we no longer know Jesus AFTER the flesh.   Jesus Christ came IN THE FLESH to lead us INTO THE SPIRIT.  It was paramount to be CIRCUMCISED, KEEP HOLY DAYS, KEEP SABBATH, PAY TITHES, and  many PHYSICAL THINGS under the law of Moses.  

Jesus came with binding laws of the spirit.  In Matt. 5, 6, and 7 Jesus said

"you have heard it said [by the LAW OF MOSES]..." that you are to do this or do that, but Jesus said, "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU..."  

And then He gave a different and contradicting law.  

Examples:  

"Swear" under Moses / DON'T SWEAR AT ALL UNDER CHRIST.  

"Hate your enemies" under Moses / LOVE YOUR ENEMIES UNDER CHRIST!  

"Don't commit adultery" under Moses / DON'T EVEN LOOK TO LUST AFTER A WOMAN UNDER CHRIST!

Get the point?

God said he would write His NEW COVENANT (not a revised version of the OLD COVENANT) upon the minds and hearts of His followers.

Circumcision was so very important to every Jewish man. Paul said "Circumcision IS NOTHING"!!!

So drastic was this change brought about by Jesus Christ, that Paul said that a PHYSICAL JEW of the PHYSICAL NATION OF ISRAEL, who is PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISION in the flesh only, IS NO JEW AT ALL!!! But a GENTILE, not of the nation of Israel, and NOT PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED in the flesh, but CIRCUMCISED IN HIS HEART, HE, A GENTILE, IS A JEW!!! (Rom. 2:27-29).

Now then, with that in mind turn to Col.2:19-13:

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how?] with the circumcision MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: buried with Him in BAPTISM [how? same way! "without hands" or water], wherein also ye ARE RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God, Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being DEAD IN YOUR SINS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened [made alive] together with Him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES."

According to Paul, "How many baptisms are there?"  

"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE BAPTISM, ONE God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

Water baptism avails us NOTHING unless we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST (Rom. 6:3-7) with a baptism WITHOUT HANDS--not of the letter and the flesh, but of the SPIRIT!

Nothing that we do that starts in the flesh can add one cubic to our spiritual stature.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray