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God's only begotten Son
Kat:
Hi Anne,
Here is a section I took out of the Trinity paper. I think this might help you :)
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------------------------------
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
Notice that the holy spirit is NO PART of this analogy. Now seriously, if the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why does it have NO PART in so many dozens and dozens of Scriptures like this one? Surely if there is a trinity, the holy spirit could represent maybe the soil, or the sunshine, or the rain, or at least be some part of this analogy with the Father, the Son, and the Saints, don’t you think? But no! The holy spirit is not mentioned. That is because it is not necessary for it to be mentioned, and also because it is not a third god of a trinity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Kat
Thanks for the direction....it got me thinking ....again...
Kat Ray says pay attention to the WORDS.
He said : Christ was created and His coming out of God does not change that or make Him eternal.
i know by now that Ray does not say things superficially. As i understood and really looked closely at what Ray says I see this. Please correct me if I am wrong. Ray said about Christ....as I see it and maybe not as Ray means it.....help me here please...
…His coming OUT OF GOD does not change that ( He CAME OUT OF GOD) or that HE came out of God does not make Him eternal.
Now that would be the same for us too wouldn't it! Our coming out of Babylon doesn’t make us elect. Our being faithful to God and to the end ~Does~ !
Our being "called" does not make us "chosen"….our being chosen makes us chosen!
That Christ died as the sin offering, completed the work His Father sent Him to do. THEN....
Heb 5 : 10 Being designated and recognized and saluted by God as high Priest after the order with the rank of Melchizedek.
Can this relate to once resurrected the Elect too will share in the inheritance of Chirst in this Priesthood of Christ.
On a lighter note :)
I found out that elect is short for electric….this Forum is an electric place. :D ;D
Thanks for any more insights and direction Kat.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
rrammfcitktturjsp:
Kat,
That was very helpful, I will have to go and read that paper fully. There's just so much wealth of Truth to read from, and it is spread before me like a banquet table, and it is hard to choose which to read first, becuase they are so fufuilling and rewarding to read.
Arcturus,
That is an interesting parrarell for sure. I am very interested in what Kat has to say. Yes this forum is quite electric. Good pun. Kudos to you. I love puns keep them coming, those bring little patches of sunshine into my life each day.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
P.S. - If I have hijacked this thread, please let me know, and I can start an appropraite thread.
ACM
YellowStone:
Anne asked:
Christ had a beginning?? Wow, this is getting deep. If there are resouces that go into this more deeply in Ray's papers, please by all means post them. I am thouroughly confused. I thought that Christ said he was the beginning and the end, and to meet those fufillments you would have to be outside of time. If he had a beginning was he in time or something else.
I was understanding this thread, until this came up. Please help, I am a little lost.
Anne, there has been much truth uncovered here. I to held that Christs words in Rev 1:8 spoke of him being the beginning and the ending. :)
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Actually, haven given this some thought, I believe now that what Christ was speaking for his Father, not of himself. Here is my reason:
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
If they are one in everything except their being, then surely Christ can speak for His Father.
There is also a verse in Isaiah that might shed some light on this:
Isa 41:4
* Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I [Jehova], the first, and with the last; I [am] he.
We know from Rays studies that Christ of the NT was Jehovah of the OT. So let's pay particular attention to what is being said here. :)
Jehovah say's they he was the first born of all creation
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
However, the word creature is not exactly correct ion this instance. The word used is ktisis and its first meaning is "Creation"
Creature ktisis {ktis'-is} [2937]
1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created
1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
Are you still with me? :)
The words "and with the last" cannot mean that he "IS" the last. By his own words, he is with the "last," for we know that God the Father is the one and only Alpha and Omega! :)
I hope that helps a little,
Brotherly Love in Christ,
Darren
Kat:
Hi Arcturus,
All things come from God, even the earth came from God, and it is not eternal, but physical.
Psa 90:2 Before, the mountains, were born, Or thou hadst brought forth the earth and the world, Even, from age to age, thou, wast GOD. (Rotherham)
--- Quote ---Can this relate to once resurrected the Elect too will share in the inheritance of Chirst in this Priesthood of Christ.
--- End quote ---
That sounds like what these scripture say.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
"Electric forum, that is good :)
Hi Darren,
I believe in Col. 1:15-20 this is speaking about the creation and not eternity.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent.
v. 19 For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
v. 20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.
The creation was made through Christ and for Him, v.16.
"He is before all things," in the creation, v. 17
"He is the beginning," of the creation, "that is everything He might be preeminent," v.18
And it will be "through Him" that the whole creation will be reconciled, v. 20
It just seems to me that where Christ is concerned it involves the creation. He was brought forth of the Father to bring about the creation, to be God over it and to substain it. It's contrary to God's ways now (Rom 8:7), Christ will bring all the creation to sudjection to the Father and He will turn it all over to the Father in the end, so "God may be all things in all." The Father is supreme (John 10:29) and all this done totally by the Father's will.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
Where the scripture speak of eternity, that is not translation correctly and is referring to a period or age of the creation. Ray has an article on this - Is "Everlasting" Scriptural?
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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