> General Discussions
Preordained
SteveW:
Sorin,
It takes a temperature of 800-1700 degrees C to turn sand into glass. Often I just want to stay "sand" too (I promise I will try to be good sand). May God increase our faith! He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat. The desination is worth the journey.
Craig:
--- Quote ---He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.
--- End quote ---
Yes, Steve. If God will just give as that much we are truely blessed. :)
Craig
YellowStone:
--- Quote from: Craig on March 14, 2007, 04:04:59 PM ---
--- Quote ---He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.
--- End quote ---
Yes, Steve. If God will just give as that much we are truely blessed. :)
Craig
--- End quote ---
Craig, I will gladly second that! :)
Darren
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Andrevan
You wrote : I'm finding it hard to understand that I "volunteer" to sin. Volunteering to me is a choice, choice does not mean free will, I understand this. But if God has brought about the circumstances that cause me to sin, then really I'm not volunteering, as I could not have "not volunteered" to sin in the first place.
So from what you said, I'm fine with how God does this, it is through this experience of good and evil that we learn righteousness. We need to experience & hate this sin in us & others, why else would we repent? So the man who rapes someone, or murders someone, was caused to do so by God, he did not volunteer, his choice was caused, he could not really have chosen otherwise. This is where I keep ending up.
It is okay to keep ending up with knowing that we do not have free choice or free will. THAT is the revelation! ;D :D THAT IS WHERE YOU SHOULD END UP! 8)
Perhaps this more simplified version can help.
Evil circumstances + a wretched heart condition = sin (Humanity starts at this point in carnality)
GOD changes this formula by Grace through Faith.
Rom 5 : 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. 21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto aion life by Jesus Christ.
God creates circumstances in which we fall, we leave our first love and we sin. This is part of the process of going on to perfection through which God corrects us and conforms us to the image of His Son.
Heb 12 : 8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all of God’s children share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons.
The Scriptures tell us that it through much tribulation that we enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Acts 14 : 22
2 COR 12 : 9 My Grace, My favor and loving-kindness and mercy is enough for you, sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully: for My strenght and power are made perfect, fulfilled and completed and show themselves most effective in your weakness.
Peace and His Grace be to you
Arcturus :)
josh:
Sorin,
Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (man became a living being.
Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says— He who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:
I believe the scriptures are clear that life only comes by “the breath of life” which is from God… the unplanned child from the tragic rape is not only part of the perfect plan of God, but it can serve as a beautiful reminder of how out of the most awful and vile sin, God can bring forth life.
I will not pretend for even a moment that I know what it feels like for a woman to be raped and then to have to deal with the aftermath of emotions and pain, both mental and physical she will have to endure… I can imagine how difficult it would be to have a child who is a constant reminder of that awful experience… but I can relate to this situation in that a family member of mine was sexually molested by a youth pastor I once trusted and spent time with.
It was during that time, when tragedy struck my family that I began to question how God could allow something so awful to happen to such a young girl, a sister that I loved and didn’t feel like deserved what she had been forced to deal with at such a young age. It reeked havoc on my family… still to this day I see the effects of that occurrence on my sister.
In reading the scriptures I know this for sure… the steps of a righteous man are ordered by God, but what about the unrighteous man? What about his steps? Who orders those?
That man’s god, his own lusts, orders his steps… God simply gives “them over to the lusts of there heart to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them” (Romans 1:24-26, quoted below)… God knows what the heart is capable of… He created it that way…
Romans 1:24-26
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
I think the key to this discussion is to understand that God chooses some vessels for honor, others for dishonor…
The vessels of dishonors steps are ordered by their pride and their lust… God in His foreknowledge knows what sins they will commit, because He places them in the situation and specific circumstances… but He doesn’t need to force or preordain a specific sin, because He has already caused the man to be blinded to the truth and in so doing knows in advance what they will choose… because He knows our heart and our thoughts before we even feel/think them.
I believe when Ray stated that God “kills for the welfare of the one He kills”… he was referring to all who die. Regardless of how my life ends… whether I am shot at the age of 23, die of cancer at 45 or pass away from natural causes at 67 or 89 or even if I’m Methuselah and die at the young age 900+ yrs… God still chose to take my life or “kill me”… If I believe the scriptures, I must believe that when it is my time, it is the absolute best time for my life here on earth to end, because God works all things according the counsel of His own will and His will is perfect.
Last night, I went to visit a friend of mine whose family is renting a beach house out in Gulf Breeze… we were sitting inside and watching the news when an interesting story came on about the demolition of a large hotel/casino in Las Vegas. I watched as they counted down… 10…9…8 … …1, then a large fireworks display went off and finally the explosions went off in every floor… it was amazing really… the whole building imploding and collapsing onto itself…
Lately, I’ve felt a lot like that building… the last year or so of my life, my whole “theology” has been turned upside down and deconstructed… in a sense, my whole life was built on my understanding of God and then it all imploded… and in a sense so did I… I’m sure you can relate.
Even before I came to BT, I have struggled with many, if not all of the teachings of the mainstream church… and even now, as I am beginning to understand a small portion of the truth/mysteries of God, I fight against it because it all seems so against my own human nature and ideals of what is right.
There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go… when I can’t imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have… but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how “unfinished” I really am… maybe “different” won’t be so bad Sorin… I can’t imagine it either and most of the time it’s scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life… but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind… but trust is hard to learn.
Not sure if this helps, but know that most of us feel the same as you.
Your Brother,
Josh
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