> General Discussions
Preordained
josh:
Sorin,
I've been following this thread closely... hope you don't mind if I add a few thoughts...
First let me say that, to me, the original email posed a question that seemed more like a trap or a passive aggressive attack then a sincere inquiry… I have never once read in scripture, nor at BT that God “pre-ordains certain men to rape little girls.”
Look again at Ray’s answer, the closing sentences of the second paragraph… “We live and operate under law. We automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-ordained."
This is certainly not a “free will” teaching, free will cannot be “automatic.”
I think we can all agree that we do have a “will”… but is that will “free” of outside stimuli that cause us automatically or out of compulsion to act or behave in a certain or specific way. God in His foreknowledge knows in advance what we will do, not because in that moment He is doing it for us, but because He created us with a heart that constantly chooses evil, instead of good/righteousness, for we are not yet filled with the knowledge of God.
Jeremiah 17:9
9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?
I do not believe that the scriptures teach that God is a micro manager… or a puppet master… working in us to do specific evil actions, instead we willfully choose evil because God has constructed us (not by our free choice, but in His sovereignty and for His perfect plan) without an initial knowledge of God and what He desires for us and out of us… God is the initial action, everything there after is a CAUSED ACTION in response to Him and His movement.
Third I believe there is a significant difference in God being in control (being sovereign) and God controlling everything. The first implies that nothing happens outside of God's preordained plan… the latter implies that humanity has no will/desire/personality of their own, and God is simply controlling their every action… kind of like God playing a video game.
For humanity, sinning is like breathing… no one has to tell us to do it, we’ve been programmed to do it by design. God is in control because He called all things in to being, set them in motion and has already DECLARED THE END FROM THE BEGINNING!
I agree with Ray when He states: “Man has the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do, but nowhere does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins.”
It doesn’t! God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) then He created man ineffective to righteousness. (Romans 8:20).
Isaiah 45:7
7: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
Romans 8:20
20: for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
Now any action that does not proceed out of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), but faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-10)… If God does not give you faith, you enter into SIN by default/design.
Romans 14:23
23: But he who has doubts is condemned, if he eats, because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Furthermore, God has already prepared every good work each of us will ever walk in… if He did not prepare it… we again will enter into SIN by default/design.
God does not cause us to sin, he created Satan for that… “HE CREATED THE WAISTER TO DESTROY” Isaiah 54:16.
Craig makes an excellent point: “…take me back in time 60-70 years and put me in charge of the Nazi’s. Would I respond the same as Hitler? No I wouldn't, but put me in his shoes, his life growing up and give me the same choices that he made to get to where he ended up and I/we would do the same as him.”
We must not isolate God’s action to one sinful action, such as rape or even one single sinful thought… God constructs/preordains our lives (all of it not single actions) in such a way that we will become His desired end result… HIS IMAGE!
Ray eludes to this in the last paragraph of his second response:
“Let me help you with the answer: Why is it wrong for one man to kill another man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons: [1] Intent of heart. God kills out of righteousness. [2] God kills for the welfare of the one He kills. [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.”
I understand your thought pattern here (I’ve struggled with this also)… but I believe you are seeing it from the temporal perspective here. Once again, I do not believe you can single out God’s actions without looking at the entirety of a man’s life, God’s intent for that life and how God brings about that action.
God has allowed a multiplicity of evil behaviors to reign over His creation, He has subjected us to vanity/futility NOT WILLINGLY (Rom. 8:20), so that we see and learn the difference between evil and righteousness. Perhaps we will never understand this concept fully until we pass from the physical to the spiritual… there will most likely always be some hypothetical question that will seemingly throw a wrench in our understanding… in it’s proper God “pre-ordained” time it will all be revealed =)
God’s Peace.
Josh
Craig:
God Bless Josh,
That may have been one of the best thought out answers on free will that I have read.
Kinda condensed down what Ray teaches.
Blessings
Craig
Sorin:
Josh, I understand what you're saying. And I wasn't implying that God forces anybody to sin, We all know that the man doing the raping is enjoying every second of it. But
that's why I brought up that pregnancy issue, because now that we have a new life, how can it have not been preordained, since God is supposedly the Creator of life, of everyone's life...including that new ******* child. No?
Or is that child insignificant? I mean after all she was raped, and therefore abortion is in order? So it doesn't count? So your response, while good, doesn't quite answer my question. So even if she gets and abortion, there was still a life there. Or atleast, a potential life.
Also, I don't understand what Ray means by "God kills for the welfare of the one He kills". How can killing anybody be for his/her own welfare? I mean other then in a case where the person is being tortured with unspeakable pain and suffering and God kills him/her to end his/her suffering. But even then, it's not really for his/her welfare, it's just
, I suppose you might say an act of mercy.
I understand that God brings back to life, and He said He will give us immortallity, and we shall never die again and all of that.... but I'm seriously not looking forward to it.
It just seems so different, no more flesh bodies, we'll have spiritual bodies, we'll no longer be given into marriage.... it's not what I want. I'd rather just be blessed here
in this life, with a long life and wealth and health like the Jews in the OT who obeyed God. But of course I can't have that, so quite frankly I see no reason to worship God.
Sorry...........
Kat:
Hi Sorin,
I see that you are really struggling with this.
I was going to give an excerpt from the 2nd Repentance audio, but I could not decide what.
So let me say, I am almost through with transcripding this from the audio, and I can post it maybe later today. It will answer your questions very well. As Ray goes into great detail to explain this.
So just wanted to let you know it's coming :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
YellowStone:
Sorin, you have started a wonderful discussion.
I would like to offer two insights, one of Free Will and the other on Preordination that might help you understand a little better :)
- Free Will -
This is probably the greatest fallacy of all time, and I think after you read my explanation you will understand why. :)
Ray has said: " states: “Man has the ability to think, plan, create, imagine" etc. But the key to understanding Free-Will is the word Create. Yes, we can create; we can imagine a concept, think and plan it through and then create it with our hands. Yet we cannot WILL it to happen, we are NOT FREE to do so. :) God has such power to create (WILL) life, clouds, the Earth, Solar System, Galaxyies, and Universe yet we have not the WILL to boil water for coffee. Sorin, when next preented with someone saying man has free will, please correct them and say that man has FREE CHOICE. Yet, this is limited by God's Will, not ours. Should we choose to jump to the moon, we cannot, and neither can we will it. Likewise, if we choose to boill water, we first must have the necessary elements needed for us to do so, We can't will them either. :)
- PreOrdained -
There is a huge difference between knowing and preordaining. Let's say that a mother put's a plate of choclate cookies in front of a toddler and says "don't touch" Yeah right! :)
How many times and how many years would it take for that child to know and understand that just because those cookies are in reach, does not mean that they are entitiled to take any? The Parent will certainly hope that this will one day happen, could be in their teens. Here's the catch though, so the teen doesn't take a cookie for a day, week, month, year or decade, but then takes one. I think a parent would be EXTREMELY suprised if their child was presented with a plate of cookies for ten years and never took one. :)
There is another angle that we need to look at, let's say that this was a 10 year case study on 100 children starting at the age of one. Certainly there would be those children that would learn not to eat the cookies quicker than others. Could be that a few would tatse one, decide they don't like them and never take another. At the other end of the scale there are probably those that don't really care in the rules and will have or leave the cookies according to their reasoning and not the parents.
I think this would be an execellent case study and I truly would love to see the results. :)
Now substitute the cookies for the raping of a young girl, :( Sadly, it will happen. Not because there is some big time line and suddenly a man is told: "Okay buddy, it's time....." :) No, rather it's due to our sinful nature, our sometimes willingness to harm and maim. (not all share this as not all like choclate)
God knows it is going to happen.
I hope this little analogy helps :)
Your brother in Christ.
Darren
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version