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good and evil
DWIGHT:
Hi Darren,
You said, "This is an interesting way to look at it Dwight. But I see nothing good being gained by fighting Satan at his own game."
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12 Darren I know what you mean, but we are in a spiritual battle day by day.
Then you say, "Christ died so that we need never die."
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20
"....I die daily." I Cor. 15:31. Darren, this is exactly what Christianity teaches that Christ died that we don't have to die. But as he is so are we in this world. We must die to the flesh...daily.
Then you say,"So I really do not think that "we help" in any way bringing about the death of Satan by our death, but rather by our life.
Some of us may actually never "sleep"
I'll quote that scripture again, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;....Heb. 2:14 Darren, it is only through the death of Christ and our death in Him and to the flesh that we destroy him who has the power of death...that is the devil. Death (spiritually) brings life (spiritually).
Quote, "One final point, God does not take away blessings in order to curse us..."
" Darren I did'nt say that God would take away our blessings in order to curse us...I said that through disobedience they CAN become a curse.
Then you said, "it is only carnal man who would think such thoughts."
Well, I guess you got me there!! :)
In Him,
Dwight
YellowStone:
--- Quote from: Dwight on April 06, 2007, 09:24:15 PM ---......."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20
"....I die daily." I Cor. 15:31. Darren, this is exactly what Christianity teaches that Christ died that we don't have to die. But as he is so are we in this world. We must die to the flesh...daily.
Then you (Darren) say, "So I really do not think that "we help" in any way bringing about the death of Satan by our death, but rather by our life.
Some of us may actually never "sleep"
I'll quote that scripture again, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;....Heb. 2:14 Darren, it is only through the death of Christ and our death in Him and to the flesh that we destroy him who has the power of death...that is the devil. Death (spiritually) brings life (spiritually).
--- End quote ---
Dwight, I think we are seeing things a little differently, or perhaps we are seeing the same things from a different angle.
Please let me respond and then you can be the judge. :)
You said that: "We must die to the flesh...daily." This is a view point that I do not hold to. Did Christ have to die continually in order to pay the ransom for our sins?
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
He died so that "death" would have no hold on his true believers. When Paul say's:
1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
He is not talking a physical death, so what is he talking about?
Well I will repost a Scripture of yours :)
Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
This Scripture seems to follow very closely to Romans 6:6
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The "Old Man" is the personification of our old carnal self and it is this carnal self that was crucified with Christ, not our we who have been made alive through Christ..
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Obviously having crucified the flesh, cannot be taken literally as no one commits sucuide. :)
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dwight, we don't literally die "in the flesh" daily. Neither do we literally crucify "our old man" (Rom 6:6) on a daily basis. What we do is to be continually aware of the beast within and "crucify" it metaphorically everytime it rears its ugly head, we do this by calling on our Father though faith. This is not a battle between me and myself; rather it is a battle between the old and the new; between my carnal nature led by Satan and my faith in the ransom paid by Christ and backed by God. Christs victory over sin may crucify my old carnal self daily, but my faith in him can only grow stronger, whilst ever He is the center of my being. Although my old self may die (metaphorically) over and over, Satan does not, all that I can hope is to lessen his strangle hold. His time will come. Ray has even stated that Satan will NOT be destroyed, but saved.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Dwight, I will repost the following Scripture, hoping that you now see where I am coming from.
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Many thanks for this discussion. I do believe that we are seeing the same things, just wording it differently.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
DWIGHT:
Hi Darren,
You're right we are seeing the same things in a different way. That's what's so great about likeminded people in Christ. It's good to cook both sides of the pancake. ;D
Your brother,
Dwight
Jennie:
The way I have understood this about the tree of knowledge of good and evil is God was giving a choice to His creation. He did not make us robots but wanted us to think things through. God told what He expected of Adam and Eve but still gave them the choice in what they would do with it. I think about it like our children. We tell them what is acceptable and okay for their best interests but they choose to follow our instructions or not. Jennie
Kat:
Hi Jennie,
That we have no free will can really be difficult to swallow. You should read Ray's 4 part series on 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed,' here is the links.
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D
Here are a couple of emails that will give you a brief explaination.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,627.0.html --------
Dear Harry:
I said this about a hundred times now, so I guess I can say it one more: "MAKING A CHOICE HAS ABSOLUTELY, TOTALLY, NOTHING TO DO WITH 'FREE WILL.'" We all make choices all day long and NONE of us has a "free will" to make "free" choices. All choices are CAUSED by something, and therefore, they are not free.
God be with you,
Ray
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#puppets ----------------------------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Grace:
Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual. Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.
YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!
Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not. It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.
Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.
By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet. But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?
You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"?
The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!
Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!
Sincerely,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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