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Two resurrections; when do they take place?
Kat:
Hi Arcturus,
Thanks for adding your response :)
There is a great deal to this subject of the resurrection of the dead. I only know a little bit of what can be gained from the scripture, and it's not what I was ever taught.
It is an interesting topic to be considering for sure.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
rocky:
Kat writes: Well we all die in this life. The exception would be that generation at Christ's return.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
And the vast majority will not have had their eyes open to the truth, before they die.
Rocky writes: so, am i correct in that you see Hebrews 9:27 referring to physical death for non elect (except those physically alive at Christ's return), and spirtual death for elect??
Seems to me, the death in Hebrews 9:27 is the death administered by the law, and has nothing to do with physical death.
Paul talks how he was alive once, then the commandment came and he died.
Kat writes:
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.
Rocky writes:
How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??
skydreamers:
Hi Gang,
This is yet another great thread! Thanks everyone for sharing your insights for the rest of us to ponder and learn from :)
Here are some of my thoughts as I was reading this thread:
Rocky,
I sense that you are struggling with the idea of "two" deaths, one being physical and one being spiritual and when and how all of this happens. I use to get hung up on the phrase "the second death" of Revelation, thinking that it is literally a second death happening after a first death.
Now I'm not saying this isn't true as it may well be. But here's also how I've come to look at it from another angle which helps to clarify things for me, as I try to sort out the grand theme of the two resurrections.
The "two deaths" show up right at the beginning of the bible in Genesis; though this cannot be detected in most bible translations here is the verse in the Concordant Literal Version:
Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
Gen 2:17
In an interlinear you can see it in Hebrew as "muth thmuth" and underneath it reads "to-die you-shall-die".
We know then, that this body of "dust" is destined to return to the dust.
For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.
Gen 3:19
You see, we are "physically" dyING the moment we are born. This is a given, an unavoidable fact. In a sense, I see it as yet another "literal" experience that is a "type" or "shadow" of the spiritual experience: the TRUE death is the death of the carnal mind. It is the only death we really need to understand or even concern ourselves with. Physical death is a PROCESS which is a reflection of the only real and true death and that is the PROCESS of spiritual death. Therefore, the bible is really speaking of ONE death....Ray talks about this many times, how everything in the scriptures is really ONE....there may be a "literal" meaning but it points to the "spiritual" meaning....so in fact there is really only ONE meaning.
For example, there are not TWO sabbaths, one physical and one spiritual.....No, there is ONLY ONE Sabbath. There is a literal seventh day which is called the Sabbath...but what concern is this to the spiritually minded??? It is the true spiritual Sabbath (Jesus) that the physical Sabbath points to...once a believer understands this, the physical loses all significance and the spiritual meaning can be embraced. Ray has said, if one focuses too much on the "lilteral, physical" thing, you will never see the spiritual.
With this in mind, when we are reading about death in the bible, it points to this all important spiritual death.....the ONE death:
And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
Heb 9:27
I believe this is referring to that spiritual death....it is the ONE death, the ONLY death we need to understand, it has nothing to do with physically having to die.
Now Paul says, he dies daily....is he dying mulitple spiritual deaths??? No, I think what this means is this spiritual death is a process, but it is the same ONE death. One in unity of meaning.
So then, when Revelation speaks about the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire, most of us understand and see that this is that ONE spiritual death. It is that same death the elect go through now. So why is it called the "second" death. I think it is merely called the second death because it corresponds to the "second" resurrection. The people in the second resurrection die the second death....you see? They are not dying twice. It is still ONE death, "second" is simply a name applied to the group of people who are coming up in the resurrection to judgment.
This is why I also think (as discussed on other threads) that the two resurrections could happen on the same day or even simultaneously and the first resurrection is called "first" because it is FOREMOST in importance and honor. Just as we leave our "first" love....we're not leaving a love that was "first" sequentially in our lives, rather a love which is MOST IMPORTANT in our life, first in honor, meaning and priority.
The physical death is a shadow. It's not important that everyone MUST physically die, anymore than it is important that every believer MUST keep a physical seventh day Sabbath. A believer may have never kept the "7th day" his whole life, but if he keeps the spiritual Sabbath, that is all that matters. So then, many may be physically alive when Jesus comes and not experience a physical death of the body....so what?? (they will instead be "transformed" and lose their physical bodies that way). It is not appointed on to man to "physically" die once but to spiritually die once...and this will happen in the lake of fire for all those who are not the elect.
I hope this has made sense and hasn't confused the issue more.
I just thought it might give people like Rocky another angle to look at, and hopefully help anyone to let go of struggling to understand how physical death plays in to all of this.
--- Quote ---Kat writes:
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.
Rocky writes:
How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??
--- End quote ---
I think what possibly happens Rockey is that all who are resurrected (whether first or second) will be resurrected into their new "spiritual" bodies which are NOT corrupt....BUT the second resurrection group will still possess the carnal mind/heart which will need to be burned out of them....they still need to die! (spiritually speaking of course) and this has nothing to do with a physical body.
This really is a grand subject which will likely take all of our lives and then some to truly understand....so these are just some of my humble thoughts.
Together perhaps we can all add our insights and get closer to the truth, by the grace of God.
Peace to all of you,
Diana
Kat:
Hi rocky,
--- Quote ---Seems to me, the death in Hebrews 9:27 is the death administered by the law, and has nothing to do with physical death.
--- End quote ---
I think you are right about that verse referring only to spiritual death.
--- Quote ---So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.
Rocky writes:
How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??
--- End quote ---
What I am thinking it may be, is that when those in the next age, under Christ's rule reach spiritual maturity, then they will be changed into spirit, and enter the kingdom. This is how the elect will be changed at Christ's appearing, it is referred to as the first resurrection, because most will be raised from the grave, but those alive will only be changed to spirit.
So if there is no death after Christ returns, then why would there be a resurrection?
In Rev 21 it is speaking of Christ setting up His new kingdom, the earth will become a different place under Christ's rule.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
v. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
v. 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
v. 5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
v. 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
v. 7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
This is what Christ's will do for the people on the earth. But verse 8 shows how He will accomplish it.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
There is this mention of what those that reach spiritual maturity can receive, there name written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
v. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
v. 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
v. 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Good post Diana :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Evan600:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on April 29, 2007, 10:46:43 AM ---There are precedents to the fact that Jesus can raise one from the grave or tomb to physically continue life.
Matt 9 : 25 But when the crowd had been ordered to go outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.
Matt 27 : 53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Luke 7 : 14 And He went forward and touched the funeral bier, and the palbearers stood still. And He said, Young man I say to you, arise. And the man who was dead sat up.
Luke 11 : 43....He (Jesus) shouted with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 And out walked the man who had been dead.
Heb 11 : 35 Some women received again their dead by a resurrection...
These events in Scripture are within the scope and operation of Christ and for me they foreshadow the Resurrection to life in the Spirit of Christ, or to judgment in the flesh that is appointed to die the second death.
Not all will be raised incorruptible. Were those who were raised in the times of Christ, raised incorruptible. I don't think so. Only Christ Jesus has was and is incorruptible. Some will share in HIS inheritance appointed to HIM by the Father. Everyone will be saved but not all will be raised incorruptible to share in the reward that Christ brings to the Elect.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
--- End quote ---
Thank you for this reply Arcturus.
Although, I still have questions. Do we know for sure that those that were raised at Christ's resurrection weren't raised incorruptible?
I'm sorry for all of the questions that I have for everyone.
I appreciate all of your answers, and replies very much, I just need more info. You guys know how babyon was, and is, so I know that you can relate to where I'm coming from. Lord willing, this will come clear in my mind.
In Christ,
Jason
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