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Two resurrections; when do they take place?
DWIGHT:
Hi Diana,
The very fact that you are asking for eyes to see and ears to hear, shows that you, and all who are seeking the same, will hear and see. You said....
"So the changing is happening now, but the completion of that change, when we are finally immortal and incorruptible, won't happen until the last trump...am I understanding this right? I guess I'm just not yet clued in as to how the last trump happens in the life of the elect, or even what it is. Because if it is at that time that the mortal is changed to immortal etc. how can this be since while living in the flesh we yet carry sin....while living in the flesh we are still corruptible, right?"
The book of Revelation begins with, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3
Notice, "for the time is at hand."The time is at hand and yet that was two thousand years ago.
John also said...
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Two thousand years ago it was,"the last time," and, "the time is at hand." We do know that the book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (symbolized) it by his angel unto his servant John: Rev. 1:1
Symbolic of what? The last time, and the time is at hand, that's what. Now if you take the principle of is, was and will be, there is no difference in John's day than our day. So all those symbols that he saw in his day, we have now in our day.
The seven angels (messengers) to the seven churches, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven plagues, the two witnesses and the 144,000 etc. are all God's elect. Even as you quoted Ray...
"All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives."
This is why Babylon (Christianity) cannot understand the mysteries of the kindom of heaven. God does not want them to understand.
Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
We are the last trumpet. The first shall be last, and the last (trump) shall be first. Everthing in the scriptures are the "called and the chosen." When we look at the scriptures in this way, it will help us see much clearer the deep things of God. Hope this helps a little.
In His love,
Dwight
hillsbororiver:
Hi everyone,
I have been only observing this thread but I want to put a couple of ideas out there into the mix.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Would angels then be transformed into flesh, bone & blood to go through a judgment? Is it possible (of course all things are possible with God) that those risen to "the second death" don't even realize they have died or been resurrected? Now this is pure speculation on my part and a just thought, not even a theory. I have not discovered anything definitive yet on those who are risen to the White Throne Judgment, remember the Revelation is a book of symbols and we should be careful to not take it purely literal.
But if angels (spiritual creatures with carnal minds) can be transformed in the Lake of Fire, why not a risen (in a spirit body) man also be purified in a like manner?
The second part is while reading this I began to think about what Peter wrote in 1Peter Chapter 4;
(I prefer the Rotherham's Translation here)
1Peter 4:12 Beloved! be not held in surprise by the burning among you, which [for putting you to the proof] is befalling you. As though a [surprising] thing were happening unto you;
1Peter 4:13 But <in so far as ye are taking fellowship in the Christ's sufferings> rejoice!
In order that in the revealing of His glory also ye may rejoice with exultation:
1Peter 4:14 <If ye are being reproached in the name of Christ > happy [are ye]!
1Peter 4:15 For let [none of you] be suffering as a murderer, or as a thief, or an evil doer, or as one prying into other men's affairs;
1Peter 4:16 But < if as a Christian> let him not be ashamed, but be glorifying God in this name.
1Peter 4:17 For it is ripe for the judgment to begin with the house of God;
But <if first with us> what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Peter 4:18 And <if the righteous man is with difficulty saved> Where then shall the ungodly and sinful man appear?
This (I believe) testifies to a different experience for unbelievers and the called than what it is, was, and will be experienced by His elect.
His Peace to you,
Joe
seminole:
I don't have the reasoning powers to understand all this. What I do know is that He is sufficient and it will all happen in the way God has planned. Study and meditation on the scripture is vitally important and as important is showing through our lives the change that the Holy Spirit has made in our lives. I apologize for interrupting the study going on but I believe faith is the answer and reaching out to others that come into our lives is what is most pleasing to God. He's got the future covered whether it is eternity, tomorrow , aionian(?) .
Seminole
skydreamers:
Hi Everyone,
There is much to ponder and study in this thread!
--- Quote ---Two resurections:
Two resurrections is fundamental to Rays teachings. I hope, you hope, we hope to attain to the first resurrection, also known as the high calling, the prize, the crown , our reward. If we attain the first resurrection it is because we have gone through the judging that begins in the house of God. Having been judged in this life is how we attain the first resurrection to life.
All others are in the second resurrection, the resurrection to judgment.
All others includes everyone in the OT and anyone who has not received the holy spirit and love the truth. The first resurrection elect do the judging of the second. Review Ray's Secret rapture paper and also Understanding Gods Truths, particularly #9.
--- End quote ---
Of course you are right Charles..there is a first and a second resurrection, and we are to reach for the high calling of the "better" resurrection (Heb 11:35). But I also understand what Rocky is saying about the ONE resurrection, being Jesus Christ. Without his death and resurrection there would not be any for us, and it is through Him that all of us are resurrected. So while there are two resurrections, I don't see the resurrections themselves as being "different" but rather the resurrections of two "different" groups of people. This may be "splitting hairs" so I apologize, I only wanted to show how I can think that both of you could be right ;)
--- Quote ---Kat, I don't see where those in the second resurrection are resurrected with physical bodies as death is destoyed in the lake of fire.
--- End quote ---
I have wondered in the past about the passage in Ezekiel 37:1-14 where it looks like there is a resurrection to physical bones and flesh, but whether this is really what it means....I don't know. Bones and sinew could be symbolic for something spiritual maybe? Still waiting on the Lord on this one.... ???
Dwight,
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand. God may be putting you and your family through many trials, but he has also blessed you with a heart that searches out the deep things of God! I always learn something from you and it inspires me to never stop looking deeper...thank you! :)
--- Quote ---We are the last trumpet. The first shall be last, and the last (trump) shall be first. Everthing in the scriptures are the "called and the chosen." When we look at the scriptures in this way, it will help us see much clearer the deep things of God. Hope this helps a little.
--- End quote ---
Helps a lot brother!
Hi Joe,
--- Quote ---Is it possible (of course all things are possible with God) that those risen to "the second death" don't even realize they have died or been resurrected?
--- End quote ---
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had thoughts like this!! This is an intriguing thought...especially since death itself is unconscious, to our perspective we pass from life to life, going to sleep and waking up as if we've had a night's rest.
--- Quote ---1Peter 4:17 For it is ripe for the judgment to begin with the house of God;
But <if first with us> what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Peter 4:18 And <if the righteous man is with difficulty saved> Where then shall the ungodly and sinful man appear?
This (I believe) testifies to a different experience for unbelievers and the called than what it is, was, and will be experienced by His elect.
--- End quote ---
It seems it likely will be scariest for those who have a perverted view of God, thinking Him capable of throwing His children into a fiery pit of torture....
with the pure you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you show yourself perverse.
Psa 18:26 (NRS)
or here's how the Douay-Rheims renders it:
And with the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.
Psa 18:26
Remember Joseph's brothers? Even after they were all re-united and Joseph had provided for them, this whole time the brothers still thought Joseph would yet take revenge on them, and kill them. They still did not comprehend that Joseph (representing Elect/Christ) did not operate or think like them....This is why forgiveness and love is so important to learn and embrace in this life. If you carry in your heart the desire to see your enemies roasting in an eternal hell....you may experience for a season that this is happening to you on resurrection day....
what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Pe 4:17
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:2
May we all yield to the glad-message of God now, in this life!!
Peace,
Diana
Kat:
There is so much being brought out in this topic.
One thing I would like to mention is about the trumpet, Ray has a segment in his no. 13 paper "Jesus Christ is the sounding Trumpet." Here is an excerpt from that paper.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------------
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SOUNDING TRUMPET
"…AND HEARD BEHIND ME A GREAT VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last…"
The Alpha and Omega is CHRIST. This "voice of a trumpet" is Christ. There is something most interesting about this statement of John’s. John says he "heard behind me a GREAT voice, as of a trumpet."
You will be interested to learn that the word "great" is used 72 times in Revelation. But only five times is it said to be a "great VOICE." We will look at the last four and then come back to the first:
-----------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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