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Two resurrections; when do they take place?
Kat:
Hi Joe,
That is an interesting way to look at it. I'm sure that is a good application of the tares.
But I have a different perspective also :)
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Now I'm thinking the tares are those who come among the elect, in many ways they look like the chosen, but they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. There are these 'tares' that remain among the elect until Christ returns.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
These wolves are wearing sheeps clothing(Matt7:15), they look like the elect, but are not.
The tares are mixed and mingled among the elect, and they do not know who the 'tares' are.
These 'tares' need to be separated from the body of Christ, which is His church(Col 1:24), before they meet Christ.
1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
v. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
The whole church of Christ--the elect, will go to meet Christ in the air, this is when the wheat will be gather to Christ. But first the tares must be removed from the body.
This looks like the way it is explained in the scripture about the sheep and the goats.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
I agree with Arcturus, all the scriptures that I could find on Christ reigning, referred to after His return.
Now I don't think it would be wrong to say He is reigning in the lives of the elect now. Maybe that can be applied to this scripture.
Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ .
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
rocky:
Thanks for the replies.
Joe, I do see and have thought of your interpretation of tares and wheat, and I think that is another application (an internal one). And I do see the tares being burned out of me, and the wheat hopefully is all that will be left.
But as I think Ray has said in the past, all the parables tell the same story, "called versus chosen". Thanks Kat for your explanation of the tares and wheat too, I'm still hung up on the tares gathered "first". Maybe it's to many years of rapture thinking still messing me up.
Kat writes: "Now I don't think it would be wrong to say He is reigning in the lives of the elect now. Maybe that can be applied to this scripture.
Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ ."
The way I see the verse above, is it is "those who recieve grace" that reign through Christ. So are we reigning now with him? Obviously Christ is judging us now to conform us into his image, by his mercy; but at the same time purposely using us to start the defeat of the enemies (death=Israel) through us making them jealous.
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (seems to me, the making of Israel jealous is part of his plan to defeat the death in them).
If we are reigning with him, it is not fully manifest in my opinion, as grace is yet to be fully manifest.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Arcturus, if Christ is not king now, and has no kingdom yet; then how can we be translated into his kingdom?
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Is this scripture purely future? Are we (should say hopefully we, the chosen) still children of the night/darkness until the return of Christ; or are we children of the day, daily being conformed into his image by grace (life), not by law (death)?
1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
Thank you again for your replies and the opportunity to express things "outloud", as I dig.
Deborah-Leigh:
Rocky
Arcturus, if Christ is not king now,
EXCUSE ME? What does that mean? If Christ is not king now...WHAT? This comment immediately brings me to recall what Jesus said to Pontius Pilot John 18 : 36 My Kingdom, kingship, royal power belongs not to this world. IF MY KINGDOM were of this world, My followers would have been fighting to keep Me from being handed over to the Jews. But AS IT IS, MY KINGDOM IS NOT FROM HERE, THIS WORLD, IT HAS NO SUCH ORIGIN OR SOURCE.
You say...and has no kingdom yet; WHAT....WHO HOW? WHERE ???
You counter with the question ; then how can we be translated into his kingdom?....
OH I get it. Now I see your confusion. Look again at Genesis Rocky. It all begins THERE. ;D :D The translation is not Genesis 1 : 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them....as to say that they were already IN THE IMAGE of GOD. NO! How can the image of God sin against God? It can't! So Gen. 1 : 27 shows that this was the beginning of the work of God creating Sons and Daughters who would be perfected into the image of HIS SON. This is supported by Paul and the Scriptures show it over and over again. This was the beginning, the start and the work is a work IN PROGRESS until CHRIST comes AGAIN. Christ IS COMING AGAIN!
Then you pick up the following Scripture:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
YES This is the hope and the promise not the fulfilment in to-days times for the Kingdom of God is within not without yet. As Joe said. The tare is in us and is being burnt out in judgment to perfection on the chosen few.
You ask : Is this scripture purely future? Are we (should say hopefully we, the chosen) still children of the night/darkness until the return of Christ; or are we children of the day, daily being conformed into his image by grace (life), not by law (death)?
WE ARE NOT SINLESS. Are children of light sinless? YES. We are not there yet Rocky. We are not even BORN YET! ;D We are following THE LIGHT that is CHRIST and HE is leading us into becoming His Children of His Light :D We are still in the race. The race is not over yet. :D We are promised this reward for those who remain faithful till the end and for some, even to the death as in martyrdom.
You present the following scripture : 1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
Yes./ This describes CHRIST in us. HE is the child of GOD of light of the day. WE are the creations of Christ being made into His image and conformed into children to be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. It is the One true Son of God who dwells in us and HE alone has this title and merit which is HIS inheritance that He shares with us His brethren who HE is not afraid to call His friends.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
rocky:
Artc writes: YES This is the hope and the promise not the fulfilment in to-days times for the Kingdom of God is within not without yet.
I think this is where we differ, I dont' see the kingdom as being outward at some point. I think the kingdom is not physical, but spiritual (and always will be) imo.
I appreciate your replies Artcurus, but I need to back off, as they tend to make me want to debate, rather than discuss; and that is not my intention at all.
I think these verses are interesting.
Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Rocky
Your compilation of scriptures still do not prove that God does NOT call people elect BEFORE they are elect. :D That would make God very confused wouldn't it...but then some would have us believe that God is not Sovereign, Almighty and knows exactly how many hairs on your head!...or would that just mean spiritually speaking :D that God knows your thoughts BEFORE you think them! or that He is the potter and we the clay and that HE KNOWS ;D :D 8) what we have yet to find out! ;D
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