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Two resurrections; when do they take place?
hillsbororiver:
I e-mailed Ray this morning after posting my thoughts on the "tares" parable and I should have consulted him first as I was confused as to what I perceived this to be when listening to this last week, here is the clarification/response from him and I am in agreement.
My apologies for this error!
Dear Joe: I hope I did not insinuate that. We (the ELECT) are the WHEAT, not the tares. Besides, we cannot be wheat and tares at the same time "growing up TOGETHER" as this parable suggests.
The wheat and the tares grow up TOGETHER in this world: "I pray not that Thou should take them out of the world, but that Thou should keep them FROM THE EVIL" (John `7:15).
The "EVIL"--"...the TARES are the Children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38). We are the "good seed" which are "the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDEOM [the Elect}..." (Matt. 13:38).
We are not "tares," but we do have "chaff," and it it is that CHAFF that is burned out of us, not "tares." I pointed this out in my last Installment on HELL:
Here, being baptized (immersed) in fire [pur] is as important and beneficial as being baptized with God's Holy Spirit.
"Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His [threshing] floor, and gather His wheat [wheat is good] into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12).
Chaff is the bracts enclosing the good, mature wheat, which is removed during threshing-it has no value as food, and so is burned like the wood, hay, and stubble of I Cor. 3:12. The Elect are composed of both the valuable wheat and the worthless chaff, but we are not the tares. Notice that the chaff is "burned up... with unquenchable fire." If this "unquenchable fire" "burns up" the chaff, surely it cannot be eternal. Unquenchable has nothing to do with eternal. Unquenchable fires is Scriptures that are not allowed to be quenched before they are allowed to burn themselves out.
Winnowing Wheat
"He will gather His wheat... but He will burn up the chaff" (Matt. 3:14).
We are the wheat of Jesus' parable, and we have unwanted chaff surrounding our lives. Jesus is not likening some people to wheat and others to chaff. The wheat is not one group and the chaff another, but rather the unwanted chaff belongs to the desired wheat. The wheat is the baby and the chaff is the bath water. We do not throw away the baby with the bath water, but we do throw away the dirty bath water (in this analogy the bath water represents chaff which is burned in fire).
Notice my statemehnt: "we ARE NOT THE TARES," in the middle of the third paragraph.
Hope this clears up your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
(It did)
Deborah-Leigh:
Well that just goes to show that God works all things to good for those who love Him...and that error sure helped me see better.
Thank you for the clarification Joe!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Evan600:
Hello everyone!
I have been reading through some of these replies, and I can totally understand where Rocky is coming from, as I have pretty much the same issues here. Let me show you my questions, that seem to not have been answered yet. Not by anyone, on this forum, or even elsewhere. This is not for anyone to take offence, and I hope that you don't take it that way.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
This is crystal clear. The tares(which are NOT the elect) are gathered first. Then we have this:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We have here something that seems TOTALLY different. First the dead in Christ are gathered, THEN those that are alive and remain are meeting the Lord in the air. This seems like a contradiction, and I have yet to find understanding about this. All I hear is "back peddling" about this subject. No offence to anyone, but no one has clarified this. Also:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
These last two verses that I quoted are in conflict with the wheat and the tares. The tares being NOT the elect are gathered first.
Then I will ask another question:
I hear a lot about those that are not the Elect will be raised in physical bodies. Where is the Scripture??? I have not seen one yet that says anything like this, only the complete opposite. Again, please don't take offence I pray, to my questions. If you don't know, believe me, I'm right there with ya.
Yet another question:
Revelation 20 has me very confused. It goes like the following order:
1. Those that are in the first resurrection will reign with Christ a 1000 years.
2. After the 1000 years Satan is loosed out of his prison.
3. Satan is then loosed to decieve the nations, and then cast into the Lake, and this is after the 1000 years.
4. After the 1000 years is the Great White Throne judgment in which the dead are judged.
What?
Okay, what I hear time and time again is that the Elect are the ones that are going to judge everyone that is not the Elect for a 1000 years, and that they are the Lake of fire. Where are the Scriptures for this doctrine? The only thing that I can see is that the rest of the dead are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years.
There are far too many things going on here that do NOT line up with that as far as I'm seeing, and what everyone has said about this. I could really use some insight on these questions. Bits and pieces make sense, but as far as the whole, it does not.
with love,
Jason
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Jason
First off, if God did not say it then it is Heresy.
Revelations 20 : 5 is NOT in the oldest manuscripts. Why keep considering it as if it is Gods word? It is NOT Gods word!
Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ. What is so difficult?
In Rom 11:17 Paul tells of the Abrahamic covenant as a root out of which fleshly Israel grew naturally and which the Gentiles were grafted in after the natural branches were cut off. They were cut off because of disbelief and rejection of the truth and the Messiah who came to them and they knew Him not. So there you have the two types. The earthly, human and the heavenly spiritual that constitutes two phases of the kingdom.
The scriptures tell us that in order of development it was first the natural, earthly and then afterward the heavenly as in first from corruption or Adam and then conformed into Christ the second Adam. During the time of Abraham, the promise to him was earthly: it related to the land and this promise has not yet been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the still higher heavenly promises concerning Christ are fulfilled that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:13,39,40.
Also consider that they shall inherit the earth. Jesus said it. Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said that too. Is this not the two phases? Well I believe it is.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
rocky:
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
earth:
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.
maybe this is a stretch, but since Jesus was speaking spiritual truths, could it be that the earth, "land", is the promised land.
earthly Promised land a similute to spiritual promised land, the New Jersualem, entered by faith.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
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