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Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
Deborah-Leigh:
Rocky
Your study shows good understanding. Well done!
Rev 5 : 10 And You have made them ( the Elect) a kingdom, royal race and priests to our God and they shall reign as kings over the earth! :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Deborah-Leigh:
If we take this excerpt from Joe's post : From Strong’s we find the following:
"Rebuke" is from jakach and means: "to correct, reprove, chasten."
"Chasten" is from yasar and means: "to correct, reprove, chasten."
But"
"Wrath" is from kehtzeph and it means: "rage, indignation, wrath"
"Hot displeasure" is chemah and means: "rage indignation, wrath"
...then we have to conclude that God does not exercise WRATH one moment and then less WRATH the next. Wrath is for the children of disobedience and Wrath is to COME. For now we are appointed to trials and tribulations and the wrath that is to come is surely the second death. From the wrath of God there is no escape for those who are not living according to His judgements now.
For me the vessel of dishonour does not become the vessel of honour. God is Sovereign and does not change His mind. To think that He can or does is to assume that Judas Iscariot could impress God and change his destiny or that Pharaoh could understand and out think God. Neither is possible for man but for God and to who He chooses He makes His mysteries known and knowable. Understanding comes only from His Spirit.
The vessel of honour is made by the author and finisher of our faith. The vessel of dishonour is the vessel appointed to the wrath of God to come. Yes, humanity begins in spiritual weakness. God knows the beginning from the end. Not all who say Lord Lord will be saved and while many are called, we all know that few are chosen. God alone is Sovereign all mighty and all powerful and to be revered with all humility and submission. HE is after all, LOVE.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
hillsbororiver:
Thank you for the great post Arcturus, here is more on the subject from http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
The Beast Within
THE DAY OF THE LORD AND II THESSALONIANS II
Most of us not unlike the Thessalonians of Paul’s day are aware of a prophetic time spoken by the prophets known as "The Day of the Lord." The Thessalonians knew somewhat of this day and what it portended, as Paul spoke to them earlier about it. Now he has to tell them in this second epistle,
"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand" (II Thes. 2:2).
Never forget that Jesus Christ IS ‘The LORD,’ and so the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord both represent the Son of God.
Notice what Paul had instructed them in his first epistle concerning the coming of the Lord:
"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).
Paul tells them of his suffering:
"For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had SUFFERED before, and were SHAMEFULLY ENTREATED, as ye know… with MUCH CONTENTION
(I Thes. 2:1-2). Then Paul speaks of their suffering and the reason for sending Timothy to them:
"That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).
Paul states that:
"Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our AFFLICTION and DISTRESS by your faith" (I Thes. 3:7).
And so Paul tells them of his afflictions, and also acknowledges their afflictions. Again Paul assures these Thessalonians that:
"For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night… For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:2 & 9).
Well Timothy reported back to Paul that they were having even more tribulations and persecutions to the point that they were thinking that they must be in that period of time of "The Day of the Lord," and that they themselves were suffering wrath from God.
Once more Paul acknowledges these tribulations and suffering:
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE" (II Thes. 1:4).
But rather than wrath from God, Paul assures them that this suffering is really a token of God’s righteous judgment and that God will be punishing those who are persecuting them:
"Which [suffering] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God recompense tribulation to them that TROUBLE YOU" (II Thes. 1:5-6).
Then Paul gives them one more giant promise of rest from all of these sufferings:
"And to you [and to US as well] who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [eonian extermination] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY" (II Thes. 1:7-10).
And next we come to the Scriptures of our present study. Paul comforts them in their persecutions and tribulations. He assures them that endurance in faith will account the worthy to be in the Kingdom of God, and that they will have rest at the coming of our Lord to be glorified in His saints and admired in ALL THAT BELIEVE. This is the way of the believer leading up to the coming of the Lord and the "Day of the Lord," when all will be changed and glorified. But Paul tells them that that day is not here yet.
Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!
Unless this experience happened to them in their lifetime, whenever they lived, they will not be in the First Resurrection and see the Coming of the Lord in the Day of the Lord. Something had to have happened to them—all of them. Something HAS to happen to YOU—ALL OF YOU who expect to see the Coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord and be accounted worthy to be in The Kingdom of God. Yes, we already read in II Thes. 1:10, "When He shall come to be glorified in His saints…" And He will be glorified in all His saints at that time, but not unless something has happened in all of His saints FIRST!
Until and unless the thing that I am going to mention next is an accomplished FACT in your PRESENT life, you will not see The Coming of the Lord, neither will you be in the First Resurrection of spiritual rest and glorification. I kid you not, this is deep and heavy stuff!
hillsbororiver:
In this portion of Lake of Fire Part 13 Ray writes about the Saints "warring" with the beast rather than experiencing the "wrath of God poured without mixture."
ANOTHER WILD BEAST
There’s more:
"And I beheld ANOTHER wild beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.
And he exercises all the power [authority] of the first wild beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST wild beast [the one from the sea] before him [in his presence], and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first wild beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
And deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the wild beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an IMAGE to the wild beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the wild beast, that the image of the wild beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the IMAGE OF THE WILD BEAST should be killed.
And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a MARK in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the MARK, or the NAME of the wild beast, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME.
Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the wild beast: for it is THE NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX [666]" (Rev. 13:11-18).
Let me recap this just a little for you. First comes a wild beast out of the sea with seven heads and ten horns. A second wild beast comes out of the earth like a lamb with two horns speaking like a dragon and he calls down fire from heaven and deceives the whole world by miracles. This second wild beasts makes everyone worship the first wild beast. This wild beast from the earth then causes everyone on earth to make an image of the first wild beast from the sea and makes everyone worship this image of the wild beast from the sea or be killed.
This image of the wild beast from the sea then causes everyone to worship this image, and causes all to receive a MARK of the first wild beast from the sea in their right hand, or in their foreheads. They can have either a mark or the name or the number of his name, and that number is said (albeit not correctly said) to be the number of a man, and it is the number 666.
Now repeat all that back to me in your own words! Okay, let’s try this shortened version: a beast from the earth causes all to worship a beast from the sea and to also make an image of this beast from the sea, who then causes all to receive either a mark, name, or number. Got it?
*the image, name, and number of the wild beast" all have reference to the one beast that comes up out of the sea and is the wild beast made reference to for the remainder of the book of Revelation. It is this very "wild beast" along with the "false prophet" which is ultimately "…cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:21).
Who is this WILD BEAST?
It behooves us to know just who or what this wild beast is, and especially his image. It is a force and a power to be reckoned with by every human that has ever lived or ever will live.
On the one hand we have this:
"Who is like the unto the wild beast? Who is able to make war with him?… And it was given unto him to MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS… And all that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb…" (Rev. 13:4, 7, & 8).
On the other hand we have this:
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, if any man worship the wild beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, WHICH IS POURED OUT WITHOUT MIXTURE…" (Rev. 14:9-10).
Talk about finding oneself between a rock and hard place!
Apparently we can either be AT WAR with this wild beast, though we were just warned: "…who is ABLE to make war with him"? Or, we can partake of "THE WRATH OF GOD poured out without mixture…" Either prospect is extremely frightening. But I would rather be on God’s side than on the side of the wild beast. However, how well will we fare in war against this wild beast, seeing that God warns us, "Who is ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH HIM?"
Before I was yet a teenager, my older brother read to us one time from this section of Revelation. Even at that early age, I quickly realized that this book of Revelation was an hard book. For I immediately saw that if we didn’t follow the beast it would kills us and if we did follow the beast, God would kill us. My brother did not have an explanation for this, and it bothered me somewhat for many years to come. It was, in fact, the only thing that I never forgot in this mysterious book of Revelation. I wondered just how fair can God be if we are left with two fatal choices such as that. Maybe I’ve even frightened you by now. That is not my objective. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you FREE."
Like everything in Revelation leading up to the consummation of all things, this wild beast is the wild beast that "is, was, and will be." This wild beast has been around from before John received his revelation, and will be around until the consummation. However, that is not to say that these things that "are, were, and will be" do not build into a giant and violent CRESCENDO in these end times:
Evil men have always been with us. And so "evil men are, were, and will be." But notice what Paul tells us will happen as the consummation of the age is upon us:
"But evil men and seducers [imposters] shall wax [grow] worse and WORSE, deceiving and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).
And so too, this wild beast that comes up out of the sea is the beast IS (at the time John wrote of it), WAS (before it was introduced to John), AND WILL BE (down through the centuries until our time and beyond until the consummation of this age).
You will never understand the book of Revelation as long as you try to make it either "Preterism"of the past or "Futurism" of still-to-be-fulfilled events for the first time. The events of Revelation are neither, Preterism or Futurism, but rather things that "are, were, and will be."
skydreamers:
Hi Arcturus,
I loved what you said here...this really makes sense to me:
--- Quote ---For me the vessel of dishonour does not become the vessel of honour. God is Sovereign and does not change His mind. To think that He can or does is to assume that Judas Iscariot could impress God and change his destiny or that Pharaoh could understand and out think God. Neither is possible for man but for God and to who He chooses He makes His mysteries known and knowable. Understanding comes only from His Spirit.
The vessel of honour is made by the author and finisher of our faith. The vessel of dishonour is the vessel appointed to the wrath of God to come. Yes, humanity begins in spiritual weakness.
--- End quote ---
That really clicked for me, because you're right...there are the two types of vessels...and the dishonorable ones would be the ones appointed to wrath.
Joe,
Thanks for pointing us to further information in Ray's writings...that always helps a lot! I think this subject is beginning to become clearer for me, though I know I still have a ways to go to really "get it"...all in God's time.
Peace to you brothers and sisters, and thanks as always for you generous and kind spirits!
Diana
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