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Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation

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hillsbororiver:
Hi Dwight,

Please reread my original post from the "Rapture" paper, as Kat reiterated in her post 1Thes 5:9 pretty much encapsulates the message in that paper.

His Peace to you,

Joe

skydreamers:
Hi Guys,

Here's my understanding of the topic of this thread (and I could be way off! ;)):

The way I have tried to think through this is as follows:

A very young child who has no understanding, or at a least a limited understanding, of the consequences of their actions cannot understand the reasons why, for example, parents insist that he cannot go running out into the middle of the street.  They may explain it to him several times, but if he is a particularly rebellious stubborn child, he may continue to do it upteen times.  Mom than displays her "hot displeasure" at this disobedience because it is the only thing that will get his attention, and so the child then obeys to avoid mom's anger/wrath though he still doesn't understand the reasons.  (At the very least, he now knows mom does not want him to do it, period).

As a child gets older and gains more experience, he begins to understand the results of some of his actions...he begins to understand what pain is, broken bones, and even death.  He now embraces mom's "discipline" and rules with an understanding he didn't have before.  Mom's discipline and boundaries remain, but they take on a different light in the eyes of the child.

In my understanding, the Elect have once been like this young child....as all of humanity starts off spiritually immature.  When you are blind and your heart is hardened you have no deep understanding of God's purposes, and with a limited view of the great and grand result God has in mind for you, you may view God's dealing with you in your life as His anger.

The carnal man, who is stubborn may, for example, think he is being punished by an angry God as an explanation for all the troubles in his life.  The spiritual mind, however, understands the benefits of tribulation, and embraces the discipline knowing it is coming from the hand of a loving father.  The spiritual mind is growing and maturing in his understanding of the consequences of his behavior, and in the understanding of God's ways....which are always for the benefit of man. 

So while God may be "angry" at the carnal man, displaying his "hot displeasure" at man keeps the carnal man informed of God's position regarding sin.  Eventually, when God so decides, he may open the eyes of the carnal man and shed new light and understanding into things he never understood before.  As understanding and spiritual maturity increases, God's wrath decreases proportionately.  The discipling and purging of carnal man continues, but God no longer needs to display his anger to get this new spiritual man's attention.  God is developing spiritual reasoning powers in the man, so he thus no longer needs to use carnal reasoning to get his point across.

What I am trying to convey with this, is that I think that the Elect have had to come through this process just like every child of God will need to.  I don't quite see how it could be said that the Elect have never experienced the wrath of God in their lives, since at some point they would have been part of Babylon, been blind and lacking understanding of God's great plan.  Not to mention, that many have spent time wandering after the ways of the world...before, during, and even after Babylon....so until God has called the Elect out of the world, and then out of Babylon, they are as carnal as any other human being has been in their lives.

Jeremiah 10:10
But Jehovah is the true God, He is the living God, and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to stand His fury.

Psalms 59:13
Destroy them in wrath, destroy them, that they may be no more; That men may know that God rules in Jacob, To the ends of the earth.


What I've learned is that the earth may be a spiritual symbol for God's called (not the Elect) who at least have some spiritual understanding.  And here the earth is experiencing God's wrath.

From Ray's writing:

There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven.
.............
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.

The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

So the elect have been a part of the earth/church at some point, so while in that state, or in that realm of spiritual understanding, would they not have experienced God's wrath??

I can see that once they become "spiritually minded" and are in the heaven realm (in their minds) they would no longer experience or be appointed to wrath. 

Though none of us knows who the elect are, perhaps we can say we have clues, and as our understanding grows, certainly we begin to perceive God's workings with less severity (though the trials themselves may continue to be severe), and we see God's true mercy and love in His necessary dealings with us. 

Therefore, I agree that God's elect are not appointed to wrath in their life , because they come out of that phase while in the flesh in this age, as God prepares them for their high calling for the next age.

So:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
God has not appointed us to wrath...

because the elect are being saved (process) now in this age (in their flesh)

...but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

But does not this process towards salvation include the elect having once been disobedient, children of wrath, who were blind and spiritually immature???  Yet God takes them out of the world and the church (who will continue to experience God's wrath in this age and in the age to come...until he brings them out of that phase too).  The elect are appointed to experiencing salvation before everyone else which makes them special/peculiar....but does this mean they would experience anything less than the rest of humanity would have experienced???

Ray says:

All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see.
.....
All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

So if all the things in Revelation must happen in our lives, as we are to "keep the sayings of this book", does this exclude God's wrath in the entire experience of the elect?

Psalms 102:9-13
9  For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping,
10  Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.
11  My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass.
12  But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.
13  Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.


Ray says:

He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed.

Isaiah 13:5-7
5  They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. (trees, mountains,grass....etc??)
6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt

Will this not be the experience of the elect?  Aren't all these things for our admonition?

Revelation 14:9-10
9  And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10  he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Didn't even the elect also once upon the time "worship the beast".....don't we all have the mark of the beast?  Isn't the Lake of Fire experienced in the elect right now, in their flesh??

I thought that the actual difference between the elect and the rest of humanity is that they experience all these things in their lives now, before everyone else...God's anger turns to mercy for the elect in this age, and for everyone else in the next age.  I see His necessary wrath as being poured out onto the carnality within us, so as to destroy it....a fiery wrath against the old man of sin... 

Psalms 21:9
Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.


So I don't think I'm in disagreement with what Ray is saying....but I'm thinking that God's wrath diminishes in the lives of the elect as their eyes are opened and they respond to the truth accordingly.  They are chosen to experience the whole of Revelation and the bible in this age, while the rest will experience it in the next age. 

At least, that's how I'm understanding it thus far.  As always I am open to correction and further enlightenment on this topic!

Peace,
Diana

rocky:
I think there is a difference between the day of wrath to come, which the elect will not be hurt by, versus being a child of wrath by nature.   

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. 

 Psa 7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 

 Psa 7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors. 

 Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 

 Psa 7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch [which] he made. 

 Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate. 

 Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high. 

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 

 Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. 

 Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright. 



I think there is a great example in Leviticus of this, dealing with leprosy, and declaring a person clean or unclean.

Notice that a cloth can be saved from the fire, if it is cleansed by the water.

If it is not cleansed by water the first time, it is purified by fire and hopefully saved.

If the infection still continues after the washing and the fire, the entire garment is destroyed.

Leviticus 13:40-59

Then the priest shall examine him, and if the diseased swelling is reddish white on his bald head or forehead like the appearance of leprosy in the skin of the body, he is a leprous man; he is unclean; the priest shall surely pronounce him unclean; his disease is on his head.

And the leper's clothes shall be rent, and the hair of his head shall hang loose, and he shall cover his upper lip and cry, Unclean, unclean! He shall remain unclean as long as the disease is in him; he is unclean; he shall live alone [and] his dwelling shall be outside the camp.

The garment also that the disease of leprosy is in, whether a wool or a linen garment, qther it be in woven or knitted stuff or in the warp or woof of linen or of wool, or in a skin or anything made of skin, if the disease is greenish or reddish in the garment, or in a skin or in the warp or woof or in anything made of skin, it is the plague of leprosy; show it to the priest. The priest shall examine the diseased article and shut it up for seven days.

He shall examine the disease on the seventh day; if is spread in the garment, or in the article, whatever service it may be used for, the disease is a rotting or corroding leprosy; it is unclean. He shall burn the garment, whether diseased in warp or woof, in wool or linen, or anything made of skin; for it is a rotting or corroding leprosy, to be burned in the fire.

But if the priest finds the disease has not spread in the garment, in the warp or the woof, or in anything made of skin, then the priest shall command that they wash the thing in which the plague is, and he shall shut it up seven days more.

And the priest shall examine the diseased article after it has been washed, and if the diseased portion has not changed color, though the disease has not spread, it is unclean; you shall burn it in the fire; it is a rotting or corroding [disease], whether the leprous spot be inside or outside. If the priest looks and the diseased portion is less noticeable after it is washed, he shall tear it out of the garment, or the skin (leather), or out of the warp or woof. If it appears still in the garment, either in the warp or in the woof, or in anything made of skin, it is spreading; you shall burn the diseased part with fire.

But the garment, or the woven or knitted stuff or warp or woof, or anything made of skin from which the disease departs when you have washed it, shall then be washed a second time, and be clean.

This is the law for a leprous disease in a garment of wool or linen, either in the warp or woof, or in anything made of skin, to pronounce it clean or unclean.

1Co 6:11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Joh 9:11  He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


However, the baptism into Christ's death is not an easy ride, I just personally don't think it is the same as the wrath to come.  One is mercy through the washing of his blood upon us, and one is the destruction. 

But thankfully both end in mercy for all. 

skydreamers:
Hi Rocky,

Thank you for pointing out those scriptures....so much to study, so little time!!  That's why it's so great to have each other, and put all our efforts together... ;) :)

Peace brother,
Diana

hillsbororiver:
Hi Rocky,

I want to thank you for your exceptionally good post, very well put together Brother.

His Peace to you,

Joe

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